From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-il1-x134.google.com (mail-il1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F31F3CB35 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2020 13:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-il1-x134.google.com with SMTP id o3so12301155ilo.12 for ; Sat, 04 Jul 2020 10:29:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qr+a4/LR0Tl9Cd+7EcltgsQM+NA2IvKt/lXbsTfOfXA=; b=Us00mXsYekKYwzarg9sx45wxM1HUObRr32+imJ6K0BMu6s/DKWrRpDxJ5CBcfh/iZN YLJzO17IhoWTEv268O7Wgl2pBFCyKSPp3CFFSJcR81byyfhG9+i0EdOdS3ZnM2/3aAdc /030TlozLnOXqA9arlfmkBHMW6QmplN6qyWxW/pInW338yxcRskqQfAngSo40e7kHp/2 NFjW3BmZ/lEeD+63A+w3wEl3BlxWhWwA0vCTwYMWC2W9X9IOiZ8BJ14I7LADa85eqEq0 iLKQwMv4cHfYzqpr2m/OzzyPOg7tXolg/v2lPbpnaZ9iF2Mgm3YYWlGghKLWSszmqhwq ocVQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qr+a4/LR0Tl9Cd+7EcltgsQM+NA2IvKt/lXbsTfOfXA=; b=PYZcixhrh7AkbcTJNOc1J87ji3YNXxWOH7R6VaIh+R3rHI7BpztxWCk2hnnzvQZiWh +Vri+XnEB8tsHGtdM0V71kERxmQcs2rmVUAX7GDGYmVgthL9Rdn+svqUwePlXx6XiLle JPsvPnfeuJ94Q0tMTVc4uAnmWXqVm0E53I/mCo5u7f003rfGqJyI+xKKzavPz7+IDdCB xqAEOe/GdZC0yZVhQ9Hd8bLSNiBfjwHdlmqJO8AMzr53XB5sdiy1C6vaWNJxvW59cgBf m8M7AnrYrPajctv2NEY5Q72+AB2X93fOK1XLkh4KhijvO2HvjQ506gCeziSh7daYe0wa Hc/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Xi+Ly2Kf15V1fA5S9YrhNc0vtOwK/RxJjb+BZesxWRKwBj4N+ zupvYmmD0aaoI4E5zucDcM4wk4mqpWREiNrVuyfQbw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzp4hvI0Q/5hWSlhEbS4XfTA+IA00ADddJp949xEDSY1A9WcU70OPQ80cceSu6x8QpYQhFHKFycCFvnM3s54dc= X-Received: by 2002:a92:502:: with SMTP id q2mr21786183ile.61.1593883754365; Sat, 04 Jul 2020 10:29:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Matt Mathis Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 10:29:02 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Bloat] the future belongs to pacing To: Dave Taht Cc: Carlo Augusto Grazia , Make-Wifi-fast , jamshid@whatsapp.com, bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fe584205a9a0fa73" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 06 Jul 2020 06:38:11 -0400 X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2020 17:29:15 -0000 --000000000000fe584205a9a0fa73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Be aware that BBR is a moving target. There was an important WiFi fix that went into BBRv1 in Jan 2019 that didn't make it into lots of distros... BBRv2 is in the wings and fixes (nearly?) all sharing issues, but isn't done yet. Key takeaway: pacing is inevitable, because it saves large content providers money (more efficient use of the most expensive silicon in the data center, the switch buffer memory), however to use pacing we walk away from 30 years of experience with TCP self clock, which is the foundation of all of our CC research.... Thanks, --MM-- The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Alan Kay We must not tolerate intolerance; however our response must be carefully measured: too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control; too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval. On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 1:25 PM Dave Taht wrote: > and everything we know about the tcp macroscopic model, is obsolete, > according to a provocative paper by matt mathis and Jamshid Mahdavi > in sigcomm. > > https://ccronline.sigcomm.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/acmdl19-323.pdf > > > > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 1:05 PM Carlo Augusto Grazia > wrote: > > > > Hi Dave, > > thank you for your email! > > Toke told me about AQL a couple of weeks ago, I definitely want to test > it ASAP. > > BBR struggles a lot on Wi-Fi interfaces (ones with aggregation) with > kernel 4.14 & 4.19. > > Anyway, it seems that with BBRv2 on new kernels this problem does not > exist anymore. > > > > Best regards > > Carlo > > > > Il giorno ven 13 dic 2019 alle 20:54 Dave Taht ha > scritto: > >> > >> https://sci-hub.tw/10.1109/WiMOB.2019.8923418 > >> > >> It predates the aql work, but the bbr result is puzzling. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Make Music, Not War > >> > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht > >> CTO, TekLibre, LLC > >> http://www.teklibre.com > >> Tel: 1-831-435-0729 <(831)%20435-0729> > > > > -- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Carlo Augusto Grazia, Ph. D. > > Assistant Professor > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dept. of Engineering "Enzo Ferrari" > > University of Modena and Reggio Emilia > > Via Pietro Vivarelli, 10/1 - 41125 - Modena - Italy > > Building 26, floor 2, room 28 > > Tel.: +39-059-2056323 <+39%20059%20205%206323> > > email: carloaugusto.grazia@unimore.it > > Link to my personal home page here > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -- > Make Music, Not War > > Dave T=C3=A4ht > CTO, TekLibre, LLC > http://www.teklibre.com > Tel: 1-831-435-0729 <(831)%20435-0729> > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > --000000000000fe584205a9a0fa73 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Be aware that BBR is a moving target.=C2=A0 =C2=A0There wa= s an important WiFi fix that went into BBRv1 in Jan 2019 that didn't ma= ke it into lots of distros...=C2=A0 =C2=A0BBRv2 is in the wings and fixes (= nearly?) all sharing issues, but isn't done yet.

Key= takeaway: pacing is inevitable, because it saves large content providers m= oney (more efficient=C2=A0use of the most expensive silicon in the data cen= ter, the switch buffer memory), however to use pacing we walk away from 30 = years of experience with TCP self clock, which is the foundation of all of = our CC research....

=
Thanks,
--MM--
The best= way to predict the future is to create it. =C2=A0- Alan Kay

We must= not tolerate intolerance;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0however our response must be carefully measured:=C2=A0
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too strong would be hypocritical and ris= ks spiraling out of control;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
<= /div>


On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 1:25 PM Dave Taht = <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrot= e:
and everythin= g we know about the tcp macroscopic model, is obsolete,
according to a=C2=A0 provocative paper by matt mathis and Jamshid Mahdavi in sigcomm.

https://ccronline.sigcomm.or= g/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/acmdl19-323.pdf




On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 1:05 PM Carlo Augusto Grazia
<car= loaugusto.grazia@unimore.it> wrote:
>
> Hi Dave,
> thank you for your email!
> Toke told me about AQL a couple of weeks ago, I definitely want to tes= t it ASAP.
> BBR struggles a lot on Wi-Fi interfaces (ones with aggregation) with k= ernel 4.14 & 4.19.
> Anyway, it seems that with BBRv2 on new kernels this problem does not = exist anymore.
>
> Best regards
> Carlo
>
> Il giorno ven 13 dic 2019 alle 20:54 Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> ha scritt= o:
>>
>> https://sci-hub.tw/10.1109/WiMOB.2019.8923418<= /a>
>>
>> It predates the aql work, but the bbr result is puzzling.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Make Music, Not War
>>
>> Dave T=C3=A4ht
>> CTO, TekLibre, LLC
>> http://www.teklibre.com
>> Tel: 1-831-435-0729
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Carlo Augusto Grazia, Ph. D.
> Assistant Professor
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dept. of Engineering "Enzo Ferrari"
> University of Modena and Reggio Emilia
> Via Pietro Vivarelli, 10/1 - 41125 - Modena - Italy
> Building 26, floor 2, room 28
> Tel.: +39-059-2056323
> email: carloaugusto.grazia@unimore.it
> Link to my personal home page here
> --------------------------------------------------------------------


--
Make Music, Not War

Dave T=C3=A4ht
CTO, TekLibre, LLC
ht= tp://www.teklibre.com
Tel: 1-831-435-0729
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@list= s.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
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