From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oo1-xc33.google.com (mail-oo1-xc33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 499C13B2A4 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2024 13:20:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-oo1-xc33.google.com with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-59fd6684316so276354eaf.0 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2024 10:20:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; t=1708712446; x=1709317246; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=GEOF0wDvLU+2tGn03y2xQ8LOya8SwatIoBNLLHB7MIs=; b=Y8jxHaQDxO5l3lASlr50LRN/DO1S+8AtNIF8ucNhH5t2qT3Dy/LsjLJOGNuGUr1tA4 zwSpX2KTS1a4rPKTNew4YTQjzxqSQmuzHE+lGdMyuu0rd08aP/Jrhx5PCTjW3jBbtGF/ FMaVnzoscgQjHfIxY5awoWh/L17MHMwZvRfxg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1708712446; x=1709317246; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=GEOF0wDvLU+2tGn03y2xQ8LOya8SwatIoBNLLHB7MIs=; b=VyShXKeEMFO+TsFRdy8rl14ls42NZXzqpePJwqERh9p3FbS2Fp9DAci0YLeAtOO3/3 uZqQ+3VFt76NB6RjpY2JLzs+Vvz3zEqWMXNf1PyssPCp3ch9XK50TXNBYHrXAPVZ1N8e PkNZPwAIlCdLB5i73/kMJyzi2M0h3UvGHdc1kp6KdW+JrrmrjYn8X29uYdCE2yYlFZpP 0KYJUY+qy0z/dN+JI3Gh4KW72u/iKft837ZP+Q+gxs1fhWY1OBd2aOJmG80DWoT1O8xV 5BBrebrO9luzz+hdoP4S4o8C3/BRlUGvdOdS77x7xJOiain8Rbc2QKLwCra+nrY7TUyo Z9cQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzkyTNKPekY5w+Z+zTZPcl3TaTCb4/GcY7Txixa02i04Ddz50Qs IgXKlV4c54bCnTUSBzZAZP9P2+375qtoxtYFMRlwpNGWxxZYqiNbE1i1oD1gD+IdHCELR14+rCC BT/U0X7Yi7ne9nYKYeQ4WHPPKlLv0KmFFkFwKcP2MunqYzlLTWQY7Ucg+Tr6AYIdNrQX9d3wXQL sUdlVgtokAK4jjPLVmICvbmcDd3J3fQwPCqoNaD2hdgzkNKADCyw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF0r00eJIlaQwHKsA6qLp1RJbQwQcTCvsWrB9Be41upcNgebfodSG3PW1+TRgqDqjHKxu6Xu0tEsAJ8SH954AM= X-Received: by 2002:a4a:765c:0:b0:5a0:5347:7adf with SMTP id w28-20020a4a765c000000b005a053477adfmr679726ooe.8.1708712446135; Fri, 23 Feb 2024 10:20:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Bob McMahon Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 10:20:33 -0800 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: Make-Wifi-fast , discuss Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="000000000000690f1f0612109ea5" Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] wifi tv antenna count X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 18:20:47 -0000 --000000000000690f1f0612109ea5 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006031280612109e3f" --0000000000006031280612109e3f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Baran in 1994 - Shorter range rf transceivers connected to fiber could produce a significant improvement - - tremendous improvement, really. - A mixture of terrestrial links plus shorter range radio links has the effect of increasing by orders and orders of magnitude the amount of frequency spectrum that can be made available. - By authorizing high power to support a few users to reach slightly longer distances we deprive ourselves of the opportunity to serve the ma= ny. - Communications systems can be built with 10dB ratio - Digital transmission when properly done allows a small signal to noise ratio to be used successfully to retrieve an error free signal. And, nev= er forget, any transmission capacity not used is wasted forever, like water over the dam. Not using such techniques represent lost opportunity. Some think the AP/STA power imbalance is a good thing, allowing an AP to reach devices at further distances with a higher MCS. I think it's also a design flaw similar to bufferbloat. Many times there has to be an RTS/CTS, shutting down other conversations. so a remote node, typically on a battery, can "whisper" a signal to the AP. Not good. FiWi, with power symmetry, can fix this (amongst so many other things.) Some things that help include and keep improving are: - multiple front end modules (more simultaneous bands) - multiple CMOS radios (more spatial dimensions) - multiple antennae or antennae diversity (better spatial powers or eigen values) - more radio heads (less media contention, much lower latency) These are some of the "easy" things to engineer and we still have a lot more to do to catch up with Paul's and other's ideas (who were and are way ahead of their time.) Bob On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 7:54=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast < make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > It is still not well understood that wifi performance is dragged down > by the performance of the most distant and demanding device, despite > what I hope is wide knowledge of the wifi performance anomaly ( > https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1208921 ) and the related work in > "Ending the anomaly". > > It occurred to me, today, while wrestling with a tv struggling to > stream 4k video over wifi, that perhaps it was possible to determine > what tvs had more than one wifi antenna, and how well they were being > used (total airtime). > > Is anyone tracking that? Simple methods like scraping the sales lit > might be used, and or instrumenting the APs. > > -- > https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/2024_predictions/ > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > _______________________________________________ > Make-wifi-fast mailing list > Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast --=20 This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted= =20 with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for=20 the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain= =20 information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy= =20 laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are=20 not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the=20 e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of= =20 this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,= =20 please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and= =20 destroy any printed copy of it. --0000000000006031280612109e3f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Paul Baran in 1994
  • Shorter range rf transceiver= s connected to fiber could produce a significant improvement - - tremendous= improvement, really.
  • A mixture of terrestrial links plus shorter r= ange radio links has the effect of increasing by orders and orders of magni= tude the amount of frequency spectrum that can be made available.
  • B= y authorizing high power to support a few users to reach slightly longer di= stances we deprive ourselves of the opportunity to serve the many.
  • = Communications systems can be built with 10dB ratio
  • Digital transmi= ssion when properly done allows a small signal to noise ratio to be used su= ccessfully to retrieve an error free signal. And, never forget, any transmi= ssion capacity not used is wasted forever, like water over the dam. Not usi= ng such techniques represent lost opportunity.
Some think the AP/S= TA power imbalance is a good thing, allowing an AP to reach devices at furt= her distances with a higher MCS. I think it's also a design flaw simila= r to bufferbloat. Many times there has to be an RTS/CTS, shutting down othe= r conversations. so a remote node, typically on a battery, can "whispe= r" a signal to the AP.=C2=A0 Not good.

FiWi, with power symmetr= y, can fix this (amongst so many other things.)

Some things that hel= p include and keep improving are:
  • multiple front end modules (m= ore simultaneous=C2=A0bands)
  • multiple CMOS radios (more spatial=C2= =A0dimensions)
  • multiple antennae or antennae diversity (better spat= ial powers or eigen values)
  • more radio heads (less media contention= , much lower latency)
These are some of the "easy" = things to engineer and we still have a lot more to do to catch up with Paul= 's and other's ideas=C2=A0 (who were and are way ahead of their tim= e.)

Bob


On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 7:54=E2=80= =AFAM Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net<= /a>> wrote:
I= t is still not well understood that wifi performance is dragged down
by the performance of the most distant and demanding device, despite
what I hope is wide knowledge of the wifi performance anomaly (
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1208921 ) and t= he related work in
"Ending the anomaly".

It occurred to me, today, while wrestling with a tv struggling to
stream 4k video over wifi, that perhaps it was possible to determine
what tvs had more than one wifi antenna, and how well they were being
used (total airtime).

Is anyone tracking that? Simple methods like scraping the sales lit
might be used, and or instrumenting the APs.

--
https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/2024_predictions/ Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
_______________________________________________
Make-wifi-fast mailing list
M= ake-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wif= i-fast

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