From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oo1-xc2b.google.com (mail-oo1-xc2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B2913CB37 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 2024 13:21:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oo1-xc2b.google.com with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-5ba33b08550so947932eaf.2 for ; Mon, 03 Jun 2024 10:21:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; t=1717435308; x=1718040108; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=9LuRZRCNdn62hWBx5y1m8xnqxdpkVEpXiundda/8en4=; b=g8L4W8VFoHrr2FhZ6Ne6pnfwERAkdXf4fDAamHB5i1fnbdWKZH9r1UmF//eJsheUCz MLNdgGNRjSCk9mLPBj0c6MSEwLuo+EO7IcA3sL43Dq87gc9nnl/T/8cPt38iIii6wNqc doaUn5fJ3D6RUzVZiwwcDf0dBXzd441+IG8nw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1717435308; x=1718040108; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=9LuRZRCNdn62hWBx5y1m8xnqxdpkVEpXiundda/8en4=; b=NoEXs48AbhJ2vpnN+AY/aa6yuMeM+OhnNuscK/5SalTJc+kXV1OU3BCEvgxxp+Sc3X cY3M3NYmSDQuiSOEr/0HWQUFL1IX70h7CnV46rDuCUTVHsFluV6+FSXljmZ5JcIrzyVj adqyhQ+yZZGhNE9arYKW2u8EiDxSjQJq0o+X2lFi6WEJFhB4TN/N5ZDdJ+sbNPFe6b4+ cKdGddCjJwJq7nos1Mwh4hzLR+r6K6UWRbsy0Lc7hB8d5AotTEGMIXyVHkuias8zmQoa 7lHG3NiaxrfY7KiiymftXysjSy6R58FWh5M+IepV7LCnt5RiokEwI8vcGCx1D9lGBBiT 0IRA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCW4z6Y8QnWsd/+YgEAkXs7I2Brv3V5VRI2dScpvjPpTFIObSODM/jly8el/sC9990p9olmWo5R0sQiagw9xB9qoOR/mozJMTEyZM/o0xmLLGOALlgw= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzXW02MIbEbYRHS7NNcVil2iSHKbEOOjIuzw5AOOscdUu/Dqznb gYL402vqqFQbg3ZTwpboIERf38ZPhQnl2Ihuc6IU/dTZEluqgEFLIlhi/GBo/BX4Narmgz8a85T 2NWeJgcTIn8BECvZO3N/cWICeFbwffS4TPgUH8q5xQsVjzyy08brXVoc1Zw2UQmugTN+F98A+ve tUuqBOhw40RE6/SDVvzAGWN7HK/dy71KIBq9QW X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFrMlQMZqabzHTY2OO2/hfRYYMvu/egQRf0eEV8jVuh1Mng7d5Wu5LyivbgLitEPDFxkNHozy3rInJzh2FtvpY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6820:160d:b0:5b1:bf03:d1c6 with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-5ba05bcfe0cmr10878683eaf.1.1717435307814; Mon, 03 Jun 2024 10:21:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8qr28100-s961-5p71-2429-qqoq00n84385@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: <8qr28100-s961-5p71-2429-qqoq00n84385@ynat.uz> From: Bob McMahon Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2024 10:21:35 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: Dave Taht , Make-Wifi-fast Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="0000000000007f090a0619ff915d" Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] make-wifi-fast 3 proposal help? X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2024 17:21:49 -0000 --0000000000007f090a0619ff915d Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000072945d0619ff918f" --00000000000072945d0619ff918f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Per David Reed, interference is a myth. *"Interference is a metaphor that paints an old limitation of technology as a fact of nature." So says David P. Reed, electrical engineer, computer scientist, and one of the architects of the Internet.* *Spectrum is more like the colors of the rainbow, including the ones our eyes can't discern. Says Reed: "There's no scarcity of spectrum any more than there's a scarcity of the color green. We could instantly hook up to the Internet everyone who can pick up a radio signal, and they could pump through as many bits as they could ever want. We'd go from an economy of digital scarcity to an economy of digital abundance."* Bob On Mon, Jun 3, 2024 at 9:55=E2=80=AFAM David Lang wrote: > In most areas, the biggest problem with any wifi in interference from > other > users on the same frequencies, having a signal use more bandwidth may see= m > like > a win, but if everyone is doing it, the user experience is worse for > everyone. > > The current standards let you use up to 160MHz wide channels, which is > already > hitting the silly levels unless you are well isolated from everyone else > in the > area. > > David Lang > > > On Mon, 3 Jun 2024, Bob McMahon via Make-wifi-fast wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2024 09:47:20 -0700 > > From: Bob McMahon via Make-wifi-fast < > make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > Reply-To: Bob McMahon > > To: Dave Taht > > Cc: Make-Wifi-fast > > Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] make-wifi-fast 3 proposal help? > > > > I think separating the remote radio heads from the fronthaul concentrat= or > > enables software defined radios to some extent. In the most simple case= , > > the radio heads send its DAC over the 100Gb/s serial. I think the > practical > > max bandwidth for wide band is 500MHz so sampling at Nyquist would alig= n > > with 1000 MHz and could be carried over a 100Gb/s serial link. This is > > analogous to the PHY split in DAA. > > > > The challenge with a PHY split is that the MAC/PHY interactions have a > > latency minimum. eCPRI sets the max latency to 100 usecs over the > > fronthaul link. DAA gives a MAC split option too so the PHY/MAC can be > > colocated on the same die or board. > > > > My thoughts are that Wi-Fi Multilink Operation (MLO) is a game changer, > > even without fronthaul networks, per the many radios mapping to one > > "system" MAC. Multiple radios over spacetime should improve Wi-Fi > > responsiveness significantly. The break between a lower MAC and upper M= AC > > defined per MLO seems to be a natural break between the fronthaul > > concentrator and the remote radio head. > > > > I think we need to move off the Sun workstation and FreeBSD model. That > was > > done in the 1970s or so. Transitioning to hardware and providing some > form > > of software defined radios seems a good attempt and exceptional > > improvements. > > > > Bob > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 5:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht = wrote: > > > >> As I am doing, also, would be to submit to a grant process from > somewhere > >> - ardc is who I am targeting primarily with my proposal, but nlnet has > been > >> a consistent funder, and (sometimes), comcast. I keep hoping the telec= om > >> infrastructure project gains clue with their openwifi group - but far > too > >> few overall can understand the vision you have. I was hoping that now > that > >> enough people knew that starlink had gone fq_codel that there would be= a > >> rush to implement - but noooooo.... > >> > >> and you want to go waaaay beyond that. I think talking about where you > >> want to go in front of 802.11 would be a great place to start. I was > >> planning on attending netdevconf in san jose in mid july, the next > 802.11 > >> wg meeting is in montreal > >> > >> > https://web.cvent.com/event/64f6931c-b20d-44af-a54e-4830fa2f7097/summary > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 5:11=E2=80=AFPM Bob McMahon > >> wrote: > >> > >>> I'm interested in group designing an open API or equivalent over a hi= gh > >>> speed serial/digital interface to drive a remote Wi-Fi lower MAC, > digital > >>> PHY, analog PHY, CMOS radio(s) and front end modules. The upper MAC > would > >>> reside in the fronthaul concentrator and be remote, supporting up to > 48 MAC > >>> lowers. Hopefully scale to maybe to higher. Basically, Wi-Fi goes > point to > >>> point into the fronthaul concentrator, i.e. following the evolution o= f > >>> ethernet switching but without the CAT 5 for the final leash. > >>> > >>> The L2TPv3 w/pseudowires used for eCRPI are an analogy. So is DAA of > >>> cable plant OSP. > >>> > >>> Assume the seriali interface speed is a minimum of 10Gb/s but will g= o > to > >>> 100Gb/s and then likely to 800b/s. All at very low power and guiding > the > >>> photons to/from their destinations with last meter wireless. > >>> > >>> WiFi control and 802.11 packets would be carried over this interface. > >>> > >>> Can't be a NIC/sun workstation model on these remote radio heads > >>> requiring expensive CPUs and way too much power. This will also isola= te > >>> WiFi radios from the SoCs and the internal switches, typically found > in > >>> todays' APs, which is a bit of a Frankenstein design the industry has > >>> adopted for some unknown reasons. > >>> > >>> Bob > >>> > >>> On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 4:45=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast < > >>> make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >>> > >>>> There is HUGE NSF grant coming available concerning wifi, and I was > also > >>>> thinking that applying to ardc might be an option. > >>>> > >>>> Does anyone here still care enough about wifi to want to participate= ? > In > >>>> my case I would like to gear up mainly to get into and stay > >>>> in the wifi8 standardization process in the IEEE, although I am > >>>> surfacing to fix some bugs and try to make improvements in the mt79 > chipset > >>>> which is thus far, pretty amazing. I am really pleased with OpenWrt > on this > >>>> chip, so far. An OpenWrt one should be arriving any day.... > >>>> > >>>> Anyway, a start at a proposal for ardc is here: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x2HBYmSJbMoVMbLzKgkOVSvMnIFZdJQE823Jl= g0mfX0/edit?usp=3Dsharing > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DBVFWSyMp3xg&t=3D1098s Waves Podcas= t > >>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Make-wifi-fast mailing list > >>>> Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast > >>> > >>> > >>> This electronic communication and the information and any files > >>> transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are > intended > >>> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addresse= d > and > >>> may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, > protected > >>> by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone > else. If > >>> you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for > delivering > >>> the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that an= y > use, > >>> copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copyin= g > of > >>> this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in > error, > >>> please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, > and > >>> destroy any printed copy of it. > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DBVFWSyMp3xg&t=3D1098s Waves Podcast > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > Make-wifi-fast mailing list > Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast --=20 This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted= =20 with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for=20 the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain= =20 information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy= =20 laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are=20 not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the=20 e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of= =20 this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,= =20 please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and= =20 destroy any printed copy of it. --00000000000072945d0619ff918f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Per= David Reed, interference=C2=A0is a myth.

"Interference = is a metaphor that paints an old limitation of technology as a fact of natu= re." So says David P. Reed, electrical engineer, computer scientist, a= nd one of the architects of the Internet.

Spectrum is more li= ke the colors of the rainbow, including the ones our eyes can't discern= . Says Reed: "There's no scarcity of spectrum any more than the= re's a scarcity of the color green. We could instantly hook up to the I= nternet everyone who can pick up a radio signal, and they could pump throug= h as many bits as they could ever want. We'd go from an economy of digi= tal scarcity to an economy of digital abundance."

Bob
On= Mon, Jun 3, 2024 at 9:55=E2=80=AFAM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
In most areas, the biggest problem with any wifi in = interference from other
users on the same frequencies, having a signal use more bandwidth may seem = like
a win, but if everyone is doing it, the user experience is worse for everyo= ne.

The current standards let you use up to 160MHz wide channels, which is alre= ady
hitting the silly levels unless you are well isolated from everyone else in= the
area.

David Lang


On Mon, 3 Jun 2024, Bob McMahon via Make-wifi-fast wrote:

> Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2024 09:47:20 -0700
> From: Bob McMahon via Make-wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferblo= at.net>
> Reply-To: Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com>
> To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> Cc: Make-Wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] make-wifi-fast 3 proposal help?
>
> I think separating the remote radio heads from the fronthaul concentra= tor
> enables software defined radios to some extent. In the most simple cas= e,
> the radio heads send its DAC over the 100Gb/s serial. I think the prac= tical
> max bandwidth for wide band is 500MHz so sampling at Nyquist would ali= gn
> with 1000 MHz and could be carried over a 100Gb/s serial link. This is=
> analogous to the PHY split in DAA.
>
> The challenge with a PHY split is that the MAC/PHY interactions have a=
> latency minimum.=C2=A0 eCPRI sets the max latency to 100 usecs over th= e
> fronthaul link. DAA gives a MAC split option too so the PHY/MAC can be=
> colocated on the same die or board.
>
> My thoughts are that Wi-Fi Multilink Operation (MLO) is a game changer= ,
> even without fronthaul networks, per the many radios mapping to one > "system" MAC. Multiple radios over spacetime should improve = Wi-Fi
> responsiveness significantly. The break between a lower MAC and upper = MAC
> defined per MLO seems to be a natural break between the fronthaul
> concentrator and the remote radio head.
>
> I think we need to move off the Sun workstation and FreeBSD model. Tha= t was
> done in the 1970s or so. Transitioning to hardware and providing some = form
> of software defined radios seems a good attempt and exceptional
> improvements.
>
> Bob
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 5:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:<= br> >
>> As I am doing, also, would be to submit to a grant process from so= mewhere
>> - ardc is who I am targeting primarily with my proposal, but nlnet= has been
>> a consistent funder, and (sometimes), comcast. I keep hoping the t= elecom
>> infrastructure project gains clue with their openwifi group - but = far too
>> few overall can understand the vision you have. I was hoping that = now that
>> enough people knew that starlink had gone fq_codel that there woul= d be a
>> rush to implement - but noooooo....
>>
>> and you want to go waaaay beyond that. I think talking about where= you
>> want to go in front of 802.11 would be a great place to start. I w= as
>> planning on attending netdevconf in san jose in mid july, the next= 802.11
>> wg meeting is in montreal
>>
>> https://web.cvent.c= om/event/64f6931c-b20d-44af-a54e-4830fa2f7097/summary
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 5:11=E2=80=AFPM Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com= >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm interested in group designing an open API or equivalen= t over a high
>>> speed serial/digital interface to drive a remote Wi-Fi lower M= AC, digital
>>> PHY, analog PHY, CMOS radio(s) and front end modules. The uppe= r MAC would
>>> reside in the fronthaul concentrator and be remote, supporting= up to 48 MAC
>>> lowers. Hopefully scale to maybe to higher.=C2=A0 Basically, W= i-Fi goes point to
>>> point into the fronthaul concentrator, i.e. following the evol= ution of
>>> ethernet switching but without the CAT 5 for the final leash.<= br> >>>
>>> The L2TPv3 w/pseudowires used for eCRPI are an analogy. So is = DAA of
>>> cable plant OSP.
>>>
>>> Assume the seriali interface speed is=C2=A0 a minimum of 10Gb/= s but will go to
>>> 100Gb/s and then likely to 800b/s.=C2=A0 All at very low power= and guiding the
>>> photons to/from their destinations with last meter wireless. >>>
>>> WiFi control and 802.11 packets would be carried over this int= erface.
>>>
>>> Can't be a NIC/sun workstation model on these remote radio= heads
>>> requiring expensive CPUs and way too much power. This will als= o isolate
>>> WiFi radios from=C2=A0 the SoCs and the internal switches, typ= ically found in
>>> todays' APs, which is a bit of a Frankenstein design the i= ndustry has
>>> adopted for some unknown reasons.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 4:45=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Make-wifi= -fast <
>>> make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There is HUGE NSF grant coming available concerning wifi, = and I was also
>>>> thinking that applying to ardc might be an option.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone here still care enough about wifi to want to p= articipate? In
>>>> my case I would like to gear up mainly to get into and sta= y
>>>> in the wifi8 standardization process in the IEEE, although= I am
>>>> surfacing to fix some bugs and try to make improvements in= the mt79 chipset
>>>> which is thus far, pretty amazing. I am really pleased wit= h OpenWrt on this
>>>> chip, so far. An OpenWrt one should be arriving any day...= .
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, a start at a proposal for ardc is here:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x2HBYmSJbMoVMbLzKgkOVSvM= nIFZdJQE823Jlg0mfX0/edit?usp=3Dsharing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/= watch?v=3DBVFWSyMp3xg&t=3D1098s Waves Podcast
>>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Make-wifi-fast mailing list
>>>> Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/= listinfo/make-wifi-fast
>>>
>>>
>>> This electronic communication and the information and any file= s
>>> transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and a= re intended
>>> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is a= ddressed and
>>> may contain information that is confidential, legally privileg= ed, protected
>>> by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to an= yone else. If
>>> you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible f= or delivering
>>> the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified = that any use,
>>> copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or= copying of
>>> this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mai= l in error,
>>> please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your co= mputer, and
>>> destroy any printed copy of it.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= =3DBVFWSyMp3xg&t=3D1098s Waves Podcast
>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
Make-wifi-fast mailing list
M= ake-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wif= i-fast

This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it. --00000000000072945d0619ff918f-- --0000000000007f090a0619ff915d Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIQagYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIQWzCCEFcCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg gg3BMIIFDTCCA/WgAwIBAgIQeEqpED+lv77edQixNJMdADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADBMMSAwHgYD VQQLExdHbG9iYWxTaWduIFJvb3QgQ0EgLSBSMzETMBEGA1UEChMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjETMBEGA1UE AxMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjAeFw0yMDA5MTYwMDAwMDBaFw0yODA5MTYwMDAwMDBaMFsxCzAJBgNVBAYT AkJFMRkwFwYDVQQKExBHbG9iYWxTaWduIG52LXNhMTEwLwYDVQQDEyhHbG9iYWxTaWduIEdDQyBS MyBQZXJzb25hbFNpZ24gMiBDQSAyMDIwMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA vbCmXCcsbZ/a0fRIQMBxp4gJnnyeneFYpEtNydrZZ+GeKSMdHiDgXD1UnRSIudKo+moQ6YlCOu4t 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