From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ej1-x62e.google.com (mail-ej1-x62e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9153B3B2A4 for ; Tue, 18 May 2021 19:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id k10so17215390ejj.8 for ; Tue, 18 May 2021 16:52:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=a87OBNZzGAHJTJBnJwLQTeXa2hvm6DHHJUi0MV3qNnc=; b=e3sGOzhGl/6sKlpmiBf7Rf79loQMLoy8jIlucRuHXnAyf5/rOjjHxWD4Hn5Q+WobsG oACkVXQllD1Fw5p2eX8KhZqfNBIhwVypOEefBZSUjIh4mqbyLCI15NQSLO0sKTqXiVCB DeKPOaHB6rxaJjSE8CFSu3fpBz5Nps4Z6q6f4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=a87OBNZzGAHJTJBnJwLQTeXa2hvm6DHHJUi0MV3qNnc=; b=rtz9XiFfLWKKOZyAdsAUE+VrsuLK3QRCst2InBFa9zm/yo7IQoa9V/34W53g6uoeCo g2Klp6iR+xsWUzZys24ES/dyBHCv6jYI25tcYmYGlDwN3Xv8PjcPp5dr+9J4Ig1R3j3w 34Knj5qYlbHuWA3I+9LepG3HfmtEP0VtVDG7M1YlMb+jau6pPPbFfSDOa4NwAZyvRfr0 v0fYGfs/7LB9krwd9ASF2Xe1PrdrlmkPI2xxP1OmV9Z4v+rHttRXjd80+QSF5Hasmi7s ZXDDbaW5Gpbx/IMnQJuSvzteYwaX/YMbFZCZCVf7xMDH+TWwWWzrllHbg7cxIkKUiAt5 kRDA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530/JebZzFIA56SCL7zJArs1KVYtqufIZFEC1+IlJxPs1rje6Ylz zTRLb4TacOQus0jWrd0xkCxshAp0L6tdADZpsDU161fsQZFaEjxX6XKX3/fc9uTLYgeYlJFZs6N 2LxvYx4yPVoOCniBGFagjxEZBAiGzW9zKRS/haJzGcw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwrJ856oSw/mKF8nr5wkz2MKICcKjJ8/sycxdm32mA9YZhkperw3ay6reRROm1J+VMCi6XX4RtWUwbMdDT5yng= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:600b:: with SMTP id o11mr8636902ejj.345.1621381931455; Tue, 18 May 2021 16:52:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <011601d74c30$d2bea690$783bf3b0$@hanekom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Bob McMahon Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 16:52:00 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jannie Hanekom Cc: Make-Wifi-fast Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="00000000000018624b05c2a366c1" Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] 2.4Ghz hybrid wiring for nest protects X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 23:52:12 -0000 --00000000000018624b05c2a366c1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001226a505c2a36642" --0000000000001226a505c2a36642 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To the technical points, o) Don't need to monitor the passive cables, they're just acting as wave guides. I need to monitor they're doing their purpose, provide for the devices and their ability to reliably communicate with one another. If that fails, fallback to where things are as today, chirp alarms though add amazon guard. Also, call somebody and fix the things. o) Cat 6 and APs require power and WiFi APs really aren't as robust as people think. I wouldn't connect life support to one. Nor life support to a cable company that ran cables in a shoddy manner in the 80s that are still there today. o) The noise floor is something that needs to be addressed - I assumed Google would have done some of that before selling them to consumers. Trust but verify comes to mind. o) An RF plan could help though a plan with devices and redundancy that actively measure SINR and alerts seems best. Samples in time don't always predict. Bob On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 4:32 PM Bob McMahon wrote: > Yeah, this whole thread should start with a disclaimer of *no > responsibility nor liability for any opinions expressed*. I'm not a > lawyer and not sure the best way to write such disclaimers, but I fully > understand the seriousness of fire alerting and that a WiFi discussion > group is not a place to go for anything more than discussion and opinions= . > > As some background, and way off topic for sure, I called the local fire > department and they said there is no current requirement for a floor to > floor alerting system on older buildings. I then asked if they would have > their kids live in such a building and the answer was, "I can't answer > that." And any other following question I had was "google it" because "we= , > the fire department, don't want to take liability for something we can't > affect." I also spoke with a person who runs a fire consulting business a= nd > he said not having alerting on the egress escapes was not safe, > particularly for higher level floors. > > I found that a professionally installed alerting system would cost $60K t= o > $100K. This is just alerting, not suppression. Needless to say, the HOA > doesn't have such funds. Each unit has a few chirp alarms which seems to = be > sufficient for the fire department w/respect to them not hindering "real > estate transactions" because real estate business is serious too. The fir= e > dept would get crushed politically if they imposed $100K bills on people > trying to meet their rents. Note: they will get involved when a building > has major improvements but, until then, they're basically trying to avoid > any kind of liability and they only get involved after the building > department asks them too. In other words, the building is not going to be > honestly evaluated for fire safety by anyone in a position of expertise a= nd > responsibility until it undergoes a major remodel - which will force most > people out. I find reality usually is what it is vs what I'd like it to b= e. > > NO RESPONSIBILITY AND NO LIABILITY applies to all from my perspective. > > And please don't think I'd trust anyone here for such a system that > affects human life. Not meaning to be disparaging to anyone. > > Bob > > > > On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 2:57 PM Jannie Hanekom wrote= : > >> (This contribution is probably drifting a bit off topic significantly. >> Apologies for that.) >> >> >> >> I have to acknowledge: As someone who lacks the expert-level technical >> knowledge most contributors on this list have, what I say doesn=E2=80=99= t carry >> much weight. I=E2=80=99m here mostly because I enjoy the content. But,= I have a >> few concerns I=E2=80=99d like to raise, mostly related to safety=E2=80= =A6 >> >> - Fire is a serious matter. As well-intentioned as it may be, using >> a prosumer-grade fire alerting product in an commercial or high-densi= ty >> residential setting may not be appropriate. It=E2=80=99s one thing f= or the >> occupant of a residential unit to install their own device. It=E2=80= =99s something >> quite different to use it as part of the services a building offers t= o its >> tenants. >> - Creating a building-sized 2.4Ghz antenna sounds like an interesting >> experiment, but wouldn=E2=80=99t the noise-floor being prohibitively = high? >> - Supporting such an environment on your day off would be a >> challenge. That=E2=80=99s important considering the functionality th= e solution has >> to deliver. >> - Something I=E2=80=99ve learnt about loops and other redundant syste= ms is >> that their reliability benefits are only as good as the processes tha= t >> monitor them for failures. Passive cable is really hard to monitor. >> >> >> >> Then, as someone occasionally involved in deployments of commercial >> off-the-shelf solutions through my $dayjob, I=E2=80=99d argue that the >> =E2=80=9Ctraditional=E2=80=9D route of installing a bunch of CAT6 and on= e or more APs per >> unit (if the solution **had** to be Nest Protects) would likely score >> higher on availability, performance and supportability. (If you=E2=80= =99re talking >> Zigbee not WiFi then I=E2=80=99m even further out of my depth, but I=E2= =80=99d argue the >> same points still apply.) >> >> >> >> Jannie >> >> >> >> >> >> *Van:* Make-wifi-fast *Na= mens >> *Bob McMahon via Make-wifi-fast >> *Gestuur:* Maandag 17 Mei 2021 20:09 >> *Aan:* Make-Wifi-fast >> *Onderwerp:* [Make-wifi-fast] 2.4Ghz hybrid wiring for nest protects >> >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> There is a historic building that has 5 floors and no fire alerting >> associated with the rear fire escape ladder. I'm considering installing >> nest protects in each unit near the rear egress to alert of the fire esc= ape >> is compromised by fire. My guess is floor to floor wireless communicatio= ns >> may not work too well. >> >> >> >> I'm thinking about cleaning up the communications runs in the rear of th= e >> building. The cable company did a shoddy job of hanging cable for TV >> services in the 80s. It seems a good time to add communications conduit = and >> run more modern cabling. >> >> As part of this, I'm considering running LMR 600 cabling on the exterior >> brick wall to act as 2.4Ghz communications wave guides. I was thinking m= ake >> a loop but break the loop at each floor with a 2.4Ghz wilkinson power >> divider >> . >> Then bore a hole into each unit and install a 2.4Ghz patch antenna >> >> pm each rear interior wall. Each unit would then install a Nest protect = on >> the ceiling from the patch antenna. The ring or loop topology I think gi= ves >> a bit of redundancy. >> >> Thoughts on if this would achieve the goals of supporting nest protect >> communications for such a building? >> >> Bob >> > --=20 This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted= =20 with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for=20 the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain= =20 information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy= =20 laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are=20 not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the=20 e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of= =20 this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,= =20 please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and= =20 destroy any printed copy of it. --0000000000001226a505c2a36642 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To the technical points,

o) Don't need to monit= or the passive cables, they're just acting as wave guides. I need to mo= nitor they're doing their purpose, provide for the devices and their ab= ility to reliably communicate=C2=A0with one another. If that fails, fallbac= k=C2=A0to where things are as today, chirp alarms though add amazon guard. = Also, call somebody and fix the=C2=A0things.
o) Cat 6 and APs require po= wer and WiFi APs really aren't as robust as people think. I wouldn'= t connect life support to one. Nor life support to a cable company that ran= cables=C2=A0in a shoddy manner in the 80s that are still there today.
o= ) The noise floor is something=C2=A0that needs to be addressed - I assumed = Google would have done some of that before selling them to consumers. Trust= but verify comes to mind.=C2=A0
o) An RF plan could help though=C2=A0a = plan with devices and redundancy that actively measure SINR and alerts seem= s best. Samples in time don't always predict.

Bob

On Tue, May 18,= 2021 at 4:32 PM Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com> wrote:
Yeah, this whole thread should s= tart with a disclaimer of no r= esponsibility=C2=A0nor liability=C2=A0for any opinions=C2=A0expressed. = I'm not a lawyer and not sure the best way to write such disclaimers, b= ut I fully understand the seriousness of fire alerting and that a WiFi disc= ussion group is not a place to go for anything more than discussion and opi= nions.

As some background, and way off topic for sure, I called the = local fire department and they said there is no current=C2=A0requirement fo= r a floor to floor alerting system on older buildings. I then asked if they= would have their kids live in such a building and the answer was, "I = can't answer that." And any other following question I had was &qu= ot;google it" because "we, the fire department, don't want to= take liability for something=C2=A0we can't affect."=C2=A0I also s= poke with a person who runs a fire consulting business and he said not havi= ng alerting on the egress escapes was not safe, particularly for higher lev= el=C2=A0floors.

I found that a professionally installed alerting sy= stem would cost $60K to $100K. This is just alerting, not suppression. Need= less to say, the HOA doesn't have such funds. Each unit has a few chirp= alarms which seems to be sufficient for the fire department w/respect to t= hem not hindering=C2=A0"real estate transactions" because real es= tate business is serious=C2=A0too. The fire dept would get crushed politica= lly if they imposed $100K bills on people trying to meet their=C2=A0rents. = Note: they will=C2=A0get involved when a building has major improvements bu= t, until then, they're basically trying to avoid any kind of liability = and they only get involved after the building department asks them too. In = other words, the building is not going to be honestly evaluated for fire sa= fety by anyone in a position of expertise and responsibility until it under= goes a major remodel - which will force most people out. I find reality usu= ally is what it is vs what I'd like it to be.

NO RESPONSIBILITY = AND NO LIABILITY applies to all from my perspective.

And please don= 't think I'd trust anyone here for such a system that affects human= life. Not meaning to be disparaging to anyone.

Bob



On Tu= e, May 18, 2021 at 2:57 PM Jannie Hanekom <jannie@hanekom.net> wrote:

(This contribution is probably drifting a bit off t= opic significantly.=C2=A0 Apologies for that.)

=C2=A0

I have to acknowledge: As someone who lacks the expert-level tech= nical knowledge most contributors on this list have, what I say doesn=E2=80= =99t carry much weight.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m here mostly because I enjoy the c= ontent.=C2=A0 But, I have a few concerns I=E2=80=99d like to raise, mostly = related to safety=E2=80=A6

  • Fire is a serious m= atter.=C2=A0 As well-intentioned as it may be, using a prosumer-grade fire = alerting product in an commercial or high-density residential setting may n= ot be appropriate.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s one thing for the occupant of a resid= ential unit to install their own device.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s something quite= different to use it as part of the services a building offers to its tenan= ts.
  • Creating a= building-sized 2.4Ghz antenna sounds like an interesting experiment, but w= ouldn=E2=80=99t the noise-floor being prohibitively high?
  • Supporting such an environment = on your day off would be a challenge.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s important consid= ering the functionality the solution has to deliver.
  • Something I=E2=80=99ve learnt about = loops and other redundant systems is that their reliability benefits are on= ly as good as the processes that monitor them for failures.=C2=A0 Passive c= able is really hard to monitor.

=C2=A0

Then, as someone occasionally involved in deployments of commercial off-th= e-shelf solutions through my $dayjob, I=E2=80=99d argue that the =E2=80=9Ct= raditional=E2=80=9D route of installing a bunch of CAT6 and one or more APs= per unit (if the solution *had* to be Nest Protects) would likely s= core higher on availability, performance and supportability.=C2=A0 (If you= =E2=80=99re talking Zigbee not WiFi then I=E2=80=99m even further out of my= depth, but I=E2=80=99d argue the same points still apply.)

=C2=A0

Jannie

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Hi All,

There is a= historic building that has 5 floors and no fire alerting associated with t= he rear fire escape ladder. I'm considering installing nest protects in= each unit near the rear egress to alert of the=C2=A0fire escape is comprom= ised=C2=A0by fire. My guess is floor to floor wireless communications may n= ot work too well.

=C2=A0

I'm thinking about cleaning up the communications runs in the rea= r of the building. The cable company did a shoddy job of hanging cable for = TV services in the 80s. It seems a good time to add communications conduit = and run more modern cabling.

As part of this, I'm considering ru= nning LMR 600 cabling on the exterior brick wall to act as 2.4Ghz communica= tions wave guides. I was thinking make a loop but break the loop at each fl= oor with a 2.4Ghz wilkinson power divider. Then bore a hole into each unit and install a 2.4Ghz patch antenna pm each rear interior wall. Each unit would then= install a Nest protect on the ceiling from the patch antenna. The=C2=A0rin= g or loop topology I think gives a bit of redundancy.

Thoughts on if= this would achieve the goals of supporting nest protect communications for= such a building?

Bob


This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it. --0000000000001226a505c2a36642-- --00000000000018624b05c2a366c1 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIQagYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIQWzCCEFcCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg gg3BMIIFDTCCA/WgAwIBAgIQeEqpED+lv77edQixNJMdADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADBMMSAwHgYD VQQLExdHbG9iYWxTaWduIFJvb3QgQ0EgLSBSMzETMBEGA1UEChMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjETMBEGA1UE AxMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjAeFw0yMDA5MTYwMDAwMDBaFw0yODA5MTYwMDAwMDBaMFsxCzAJBgNVBAYT AkJFMRkwFwYDVQQKExBHbG9iYWxTaWduIG52LXNhMTEwLwYDVQQDEyhHbG9iYWxTaWduIEdDQyBS MyBQZXJzb25hbFNpZ24gMiBDQSAyMDIwMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA vbCmXCcsbZ/a0fRIQMBxp4gJnnyeneFYpEtNydrZZ+GeKSMdHiDgXD1UnRSIudKo+moQ6YlCOu4t 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