From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oa1-x36.google.com (mail-oa1-x36.google.com [IPv6:2001:4860:4864:20::36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D86D3B29D for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 13:23:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-oa1-x36.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-204235d0913so2797176fac.1 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 10:23:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; t=1704911003; x=1705515803; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=GEHMqLbKNdAfW3owSrk/pI3+Sl6+PPo4lyY9bnNhIR4=; b=J5db1CmFsvyC3+qQcqZwUT8YEitlQFX++t1CnLBttCYaibm+hjhnDa8wiBgSZDoA65 aba0Dxx8lF8OFikZD2fruC395auSw1ci/aiIZ2m2LLNvIMtABllccKmKIGXni+Cl3jHT QnGK9rBGkBOnZu0J0er4Dwr5kDur3grMr0/IE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1704911003; x=1705515803; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=GEHMqLbKNdAfW3owSrk/pI3+Sl6+PPo4lyY9bnNhIR4=; b=eVZ2BGDQGuqrDyXGHi+bzu66rP4sQlu0nmzcwAuw2w1rusXOwFZIBKnbW12vIQfQwF jPh6Ge8dCvAw1xZcvwr45wJ161xTCYvJ8mrFebnOUItSvSYbgqRlAFFSA39I0Tyq0R+w EfzcikeItcNP/2acVl+ZsLRIIPfvg9mf2h/XMQddk7RMhS0rkkONREhqHigvC89XTKzI YdcfT33Que7UkpRgqfBegSjfT5t7H91FlzIszS9AyCsL1Es8dDFvpB+hc+UxQGDrIOXO JaBC1D/q4MkjZG4vvCCEU+HJMHyKp8yUVOS5V5nG5/AxWKPgN4hU5iQDPfyN36RHjjTf PX8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yzsqp3vPUcgfKV94TqsDaGpW2UXFFdlpaaRBEu2W2BlZ7L8PA/e nXd2ZpzdxjWN1KMfgx5RiLLJWDfPw7z1j9EjxlO8S2fD7PCsWlS1FOrDVvKXjhlV8LK3+c/uo9t vFDdIRQqqpJAXwBmGwrjZYHnxrYG8xX4KTSRIexx8oZTlxh0y X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFiM1lvSmIBY8b7Vhh4PZvoxwpyhxmIzjWH6DNrJcjeII+DoeoDqu1pOZe2foenjpEb68vV0qlVJW+sfC30ZLE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:8a07:b0:206:f7:8f9f with SMTP id p7-20020a0568708a0700b0020600f78f9fmr1297313oaq.62.1704911003205; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 10:23:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <877cki4vxq.fsf@toke.dk> <875y01xwi5.fsf@toke.dk> In-Reply-To: <875y01xwi5.fsf@toke.dk> From: Bob McMahon Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 10:23:11 -0800 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?VG9rZSBIw7hpbGFuZC1Kw7hyZ2Vuc2Vu?= Cc: Dave Taht , Make-Wifi-fast Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="000000000000bfe812060e9b8644" Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] a cheer up tweet for y'all X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:23:24 -0000 --000000000000bfe812060e9b8644 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b8645c060e9b86a7" --000000000000b8645c060e9b86a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Well, the original context of the question was "Linux WiFi drivers are > terrible, what can we do about that", and, well, providing proper > upstream drivers at HW launch is the way to solve that. This is out of the scope of chip makers for modern chips. The os drivers are written by system integrators - specialization has divided these tasks. Chip makers don't affect open vs closed source drivers of systems. Think of a WiFi chip now as transistors with a small microcontroller and not a linux NIC. One can argue that chip makers don't provide documents to open-source developers, which is mostly accurate. But documents aren't the blocker. I think an open source community would have to innovate to a level to drive the use of chips coming off a foundry line for a chip maker to consider assigning resources to support open-source teams. Old chips with 10+ year old NRE doesn't justify any investment by anyone. I think the server market & structure & level of cloud innovation make things different for ethernet NICs. Bob On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 3:23=E2=80=AFAM Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen wrote: > Bob McMahon writes: > > > This approach is not going to work. Sun workstations as the forwarding > > planes for WiFi doesn't work nor scale and is cost & power inefficient. > The > > WiFi forwarding plane needs to be all hardware and not based off of BSD= . > It > > has to be like a port asic in an ethernet switch. No SoC. > > > > Ethernet NICs are targeting servers where the workstation/NIC model doe= s > > work. WiFi is never going to be the basis for cloud servers. > > Well, the original context of the question was "Linux WiFi drivers are > terrible, what can we do about that", and, well, providing proper > upstream drivers at HW launch is the way to solve that. > > And even so, every Linux-based CPE in existence is a contradiction of > you assertion that software-based WiFi forwarding is "not going to > work". On the contrary, the SOCs with proper open source drivers and > support are the ones that work the best, because that means we can run > OpenWrt on them instead of the vendor crapware that they ship with. > > -Toke > --=20 This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted= =20 with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for=20 the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain= =20 information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy= =20 laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are=20 not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the=20 e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of= =20 this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,= =20 please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and= =20 destroy any printed copy of it. --000000000000b8645c060e9b86a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Well, the original context of the question was "= Linux WiFi drivers are
> terrible, what can we do about that", a= nd, well, providing proper
> upstream drivers at HW launch is the way= to solve that.

This is out of the scope of chip makers for modern c= hips. The os drivers are written by system integrators - specialization has= divided these tasks. Chip makers don't affect open vs closed source dr= ivers of systems.=C2=A0 Think of a WiFi chip now as transistors with a smal= l microcontroller and not a linux=C2=A0NIC.

One can argue that chip = makers don't provide documents to open-source developers, which is most= ly accurate. But documents aren't the blocker.

I think an open s= ource community would have to innovate to a level to drive the use of chips= coming off a foundry line for a chip maker to consider assigning resources= to support open-source teams. Old chips with 10+ year old NRE doesn't = justify any investment by anyone.=C2=A0

I think the server market &a= mp; structure & level of cloud innovation make things different for eth= ernet NICs.

Bob


On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 3:23=E2=80=AFAM Toke = H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen <toke@toke.d= k> wrote:
Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com> writes:

> This approach is not going to work. Sun workstations as the forwarding=
> planes for WiFi doesn't work nor scale and is cost & power ine= fficient. The
> WiFi forwarding plane needs to be all hardware and not based off of BS= D. It
> has to be like a port asic in an ethernet switch. No SoC.
>
> Ethernet NICs are targeting servers where the workstation/NIC model do= es
> work. WiFi is never going to be the basis for cloud servers.

Well, the original context of the question was "Linux WiFi drivers are=
terrible, what can we do about that", and, well, providing proper
upstream drivers at HW launch is the way to solve that.

And even so, every Linux-based CPE in existence is a contradiction of
you assertion that software-based WiFi forwarding is "not going to
work". On the contrary, the SOCs with proper open source drivers and support are the ones that work the best, because that means we can run
OpenWrt on them instead of the vendor crapware that they ship with.

-Toke

This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. 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