From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oa1-x32.google.com (mail-oa1-x32.google.com [IPv6:2001:4860:4864:20::32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6E293CB38 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2024 21:15:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oa1-x32.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-277c742307fso648877fac.2 for ; Sun, 01 Sep 2024 18:15:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; t=1725239724; x=1725844524; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=a/cq+u21Ig6iqKVzA4PhIXthCWYRz0UAXscJhtB+bLE=; b=VAXin4nDke8ZKXdpwtLYKraoDcqVgVJFTsKstSjjTkUgwTL/rxVkrHhHlFFfg+xz21 0sjpOhQfQfzE4XT/RmzvDq3SSTkxo/LYw4Zha3HDpXuTSfs3J8f8OS57AXmLXaaFIXUc 1tPTJ1giQgFGPIyttQ/UcC+jsfUNdFOoUbPGQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1725239724; x=1725844524; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=a/cq+u21Ig6iqKVzA4PhIXthCWYRz0UAXscJhtB+bLE=; b=hKbc+QUejSqFChM3Dnv477kjEx5rvOxSC3sWoB1Us2g3YG1JARV3BQ76gjvH/rvz+a uqgzemp4W+7rOpQpVOXBsIVF3UWh/V4f6dQcRuKBGPHfmmm+yKi/d8/uqPivsC92rPxi sZM2nK84swoNixdAeJOVGSQY1pMtwvLOKnKA9+3zT77rxwBZmCZnDbeXHgaZyYdbPNG9 1FuJUDKpVEIKsp5H6LvCDf/qtSNX2JAshoysDhfMxCnYi2vcavJWpw2NHsIBRTJ5E0bK Rz2lz9Trdy8/ydfdHeeoG5fSojkypDtAbxLgwpgz4lhDAnhe0PQkalIkgX9kk0oE7Nor 14kg== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCV+Frg+2FKar5O+cjF99gUlWLx/J4kFbquXbjtrI8HBan2ZorJy5HiS0xPcQ1zLFE9c0uwpVqZD5dzgT6o8vA==@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyE+cWwCX1FQULgVQgGWc6EljszZ4AZxTuoIcgAFSUfGKJDRs67 5laZLPIbw6kIJXvuYed3Pf2O26OUz8TOoY1KvsCXFTkWE1n9Fhl7zedXo/hojHMJeuez/plpLmg 6EgOx5k69ITu526IG+QVojv0WJ3lQh2rovNEMzuFQGm0kmojXd2NZp1geOIPWEsX61pzJZ7XY2f Ynpf3YwbOozsAbxqiV8ptX5rsLDPsV7oRoDKOx X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFxcKFcwj2Vx3v/QyTddqQI4sEEkFs6cCpujQcPNJyl8HmS3vJOa8jKk0t4O7H0MZp+RjBVT0nmjcbtI34P+Uo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6871:5814:b0:268:3386:6264 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-277902ac1e1mr13470255fac.31.1725239723681; Sun, 01 Sep 2024 18:15:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Bob McMahon Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2024 18:15:11 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: "Livingood, Jason" , Rich Brown , =?UTF-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez?= , Make-Wifi-fast , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat , Dorothy Stanley Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="000000000000ebb3a9062118ac9b" Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] bloat on wifi8 and 802.11 wg X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2024 01:15:24 -0000 --000000000000ebb3a9062118ac9b Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e20ef4062118acd5" --000000000000e20ef4062118acd5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a lot of confusion on the 802.11 latency technology options. I think waiting for Wi-Fi 8 to solve this is a non starter. Solutions have to work for 20B devices already in the field. The silo'ing hasn't helped here. Those that cross the silos are needed by my judgment. It means deep dives into 802.11 which now is a 25 year old set of standards. Those with 25 years of 802.11 standards expertise are as rare as hen's teeth and are worth their weight in gold. Bob On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:35=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast < make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > I wish I had gone to the 802.11wg more regularly than I did. I only > gave one bloat related presentation in 2014, shipped the > make-wifi-fast code in 2016(?), and never went back. IETF ate all my > money and time. I just assumed they were all in the slipstream of > linux and openwrt. :/ > > I did have a great meetup a few weeks back with the former 802.11 > chair (dorothy stanley, hi!!!) who is trying to recruit people to > participate in the wifi8 standard and perhaps some finishing touches > on wifi7. She gave a great update on the status of things at the > recent wifinow conference, but as there is a cost to that, perhaps she > can share her slides with us? > > > https://wifinowglobal.com/product/wi-fi-world-congress-usa-2024-sarasota-= florida-presentations-pdf/?mc_cid=3Dbeb1b4a2ed&mc_eid=3D327a64ba92 > > On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:28=E2=80=AFAM Livingood, Jason via Bloat > wrote: > > > > Dropping Starlink as Bloat is the right list. The IEEE 802.11 domain is > certainly different than IP, so typical IP CCs don=E2=80=99t apply. In ou= r L4S/NQB > trials, we put LL-marked packets into the AC_VI WMM queue in the Wi-Fi > network. IMO there is more work in 802.11 to focus on latency =E2=80=93 s= o much > focus right now is on throughput over everything else. > > > > > > > > From: Starlink on behalf of > Rich Brown via Starlink > > Reply-To: Rich Brown > > Date: Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 07:33 > > To: David Fern=C3=A1ndez > > Cc: starlink , bloat < > bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] L4S > > > > > > > > Let's split this thread and use this message to continue the discussion > of L4S. Thanks > > > > > > > > On May 8, 2024, at 5:31 AM, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink < > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > I see that L4S is not really solving everything (I read about issues > with Wi-Fi), although it seems to be a step in the right direction, to be > improved, let's hope. > > > > > > > > At least, Nokia is implementing it in its network gear (for mobile > operators), so the bufferbloat problem is somehow acknowledged by industr= y, > at least initially or partially. > > > > > > > > I have seen two consecutive RFCs to 9330: > > > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9331 > > > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9332 > > > > > > > > I suspect that optimal results require the bufferbloat to be addressed > not only at network layer (IP), but also with some pipelining or > cross-layering at link level (Ethernet, Wi-Fi or any other link technolog= y, > such as 5G, SATCOM, VHF...) > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > David F. > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 08:46:03 -0400 > > > > From: Dave Collier-Brown > > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem > > Message-ID: <3d6bdccf-e3d1-4f62-a029-25bfd1f458f5@indexexchange.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"; Format=3D"flowed" > > > > It has an RFC at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9330/ > > > > I read it as a way to rapidly find the available bandwidth without the > TCP "sawtooth". The paper cites fc_codel and research based on it. > > > > I suspect My Smarter Colleagues know more (;-)) > > > > --dave > > > > > > > > On 2024-05-07 08:13, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink wrote: > > Is L4S a solution to bufferbloat? I have read that gamers are happy wit= h > it. > > > > Sorry, I read it here, in Spanish: > > > https://www.adslzone.net/noticias/operadores/retardo-videojuegos-nokia-vo= dafone > > > > Regards, > > > > David F. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Bloat mailing list > > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > > > -- > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DBVFWSyMp3xg&t=3D1098s Waves Podcast > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > _______________________________________________ > Make-wifi-fast mailing list > Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast --=20 This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted= =20 with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for=20 the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain= =20 information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy= =20 laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are=20 not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the=20 e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of= =20 this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,= =20 please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and= =20 destroy any printed copy of it. --000000000000e20ef4062118acd5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is a lot of confusion on the 802.11 latency technolo= gy options. I think waiting for Wi-Fi 8 to solve this is a non starter. Sol= utions=C2=A0have to work for 20B devices already in the field.

The s= ilo'ing=C2=A0hasn't helped here. Those that cross the silos are nee= ded by my judgment. It means deep dives into 802.11 which=C2=A0now is a 25 = year old set of standards. Those with 25 years of 802.11 standards expertis= e are as rare as hen's teeth and are worth their weight in gold.
Bob

On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:35=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast <= ;make-wifi-fast@lis= ts.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
I wish I had gone to the 802.11wg=C2=A0 more regularly th= an I did. I only
gave one bloat related presentation in 2014, shipped the
make-wifi-fast code in 2016(?), and never went back. IETF ate all my
money and time. I just assumed they were all in the slipstream of
linux and openwrt. :/

I did have a great meetup a few weeks back with the former 802.11
chair (dorothy stanley, hi!!!) who is trying to recruit people to
participate in the wifi8 standard and perhaps some finishing touches
on wifi7. She gave a great update on the status of things at the
recent wifinow conference, but as there is a cost to that, perhaps she
can share her slides with us?

https://wifinowglobal.com/produc= t/wi-fi-world-congress-usa-2024-sarasota-florida-presentations-pdf/?mc_cid= =3Dbeb1b4a2ed&mc_eid=3D327a64ba92

On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:28=E2=80=AFAM Livingood, Jason via Bloat
<bloat@= lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> Dropping Starlink as Bloat is the right list. The IEEE 802.11 domain i= s certainly different than IP, so typical IP CCs don=E2=80=99t apply. In ou= r L4S/NQB trials, we put LL-marked packets into the AC_VI WMM queue in the = Wi-Fi network. IMO there is more work in 802.11 to focus on latency =E2=80= =93 so much focus right now is on throughput over everything else.
>
>
>
> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on = behalf of Rich Brown via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Reply-To: Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.com>
> Date: Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 07:33
> To: David Fern=C3=A1ndez <davidfdzp@gmail.com>
> Cc: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbl= oat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] L4S
>
>
>
> Let's split this thread and use this message to continue the discu= ssion of L4S. Thanks
>
>
>
> On May 8, 2024, at 5:31 AM, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink <starlink@li= sts.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> I see that L4S is not really solving everything (I read about issues w= ith Wi-Fi), although it seems to be a step in the right direction, to be im= proved, let's hope.
>
>
>
> At least, Nokia is implementing it in its network gear (for mobile ope= rators), so the bufferbloat problem is somehow acknowledged by industry, at= least initially or partially.
>
>
>
> I have seen two consecutive RFCs to 9330:
>
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9331
>
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9332
>
>
>
> I suspect that optimal results require the bufferbloat to be addressed= not only at network layer (IP), but also with some pipelining or cross-lay= ering at link level (Ethernet, Wi-Fi or any other link technology, such as = 5G, SATCOM, VHF...)
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> David F.
>
>
>
> Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 08:46:03 -0400
>
> From: Dave Collier-Brown <dave.collier-Brown@indexexchange.com&g= t;
> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn&#= 39;t a problem
> Message-ID: <3d6bdccf-e3d1-4f62-a029-25bfd1f458f5@= indexexchange.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"; Format=3D"= flowed"
>
> It has an RFC at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9= 330/
>
> I read it as a way to rapidly find the available bandwidth without the= TCP "sawtooth". The paper cites fc_codel and research based on i= t.
>
> I suspect My Smarter Colleagues know more (;-))
>
> --dave
>
>
>
> On 2024-05-07 08:13, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink wrote:
> Is L4S a solution to bufferbloat? I have read that gamers are happy wi= th it.
>
> Sorry, I read it here, in Spanish:
> https://www.adsl= zone.net/noticias/operadores/retardo-videojuegos-nokia-vodafone
>
> Regards,
>
> David F.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> St= arlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<= /a>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat= @lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat


--
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DBVFWSyM= p3xg&t=3D1098s Waves Podcast
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
_______________________________________________
Make-wifi-fast mailing list
M= ake-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wif= i-fast

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