From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oo1-xc2e.google.com (mail-oo1-xc2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DDFC3CB37 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 2024 12:47:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oo1-xc2e.google.com with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-5ba33b08550so920646eaf.2 for ; Mon, 03 Jun 2024 09:47:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; t=1717433253; x=1718038053; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=IL0mJ+4vu9d6POSO5j/zRhDY9SUFwbFkizl8mYq6bOw=; b=ZhE3dOvzmFxE8DqAiplZ/0mrFlqTHTgDdnvyZIDkjCWFU4GOrl7052DUvwImnYNVkS ZRdb2KNoMNef/RzufvKj68aQKF/vbtXav8Bcoiu9U8ZEE6Gg4xCSxyoEM/SwwkaFof0u jgCH+VTg4rZjkFTjRNOR2t6PbpzTZfJgxF5qc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1717433253; x=1718038053; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=IL0mJ+4vu9d6POSO5j/zRhDY9SUFwbFkizl8mYq6bOw=; b=wSVfdcpIDvzfLNSEPUEeHB4ZTUPZtxe+6oOQ4rlLSMp3mxkVCLmwBg+qcTvfRjk3ba klbTUN/7Nx4cupRLBAYVWCIUV/j2GPaxwn7THPXRXOHb6IZh/U4sgI+hI+6C6K5YvDaD vANF8tdacwD4jgUDbvtHyeWezgvuTQLnZ2dNmteW/FLPYkJsueanoPlU2wjExcSr4LIf gCovbChv21rPYRDihLXFkeZCH9iAfLm6j5PC3xrwMPe/tnNptZe8kJFXC2/satkIZ5RJ ijZcogP5URrCv/5RJ4AhcMIbK67XCm5VloRu+1/FVU+E2ajdOV32VIk/auG4Cp7huI3I 5lqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxQD6TS65r8CBRzaZ9kSl387ix6VbSqmPDNF8AmIwiWIKG7/CUo 1mP4sAeNUwCMi5WRBemvBeQcOfvi1UFmcKnRoukMo3qA7HUYaAM754JgcnZkL4iFPfGj/0v+3Vz IHwwwAfhhI20X0571WxjB6DG1znmtaKhCR2CQ0y6U7cYznydkPfthip9/8dQDLdF0WW2Z3JsqTp UjR5WsFE4yIcrg+H1BdYvWqBA6DVUQ0PJiQA9y X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEetq59N4eEl66ROAq4E2A7sCqGgMM/JgBmJjAPwDvRLqmlAZm7/ryCdvaD2W+uGO6ehN8txcDKq+XkNmkFVxQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6820:1ad4:b0:5b9:f351:3f8b with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-5ba05952aabmr9619125eaf.0.1717433252585; Mon, 03 Jun 2024 09:47:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Bob McMahon Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2024 09:47:20 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: Make-Wifi-fast Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="000000000000feee4e0619ff16a3" Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] make-wifi-fast 3 proposal help? X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2024 16:47:34 -0000 --000000000000feee4e0619ff16a3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f23da70619ff16d0" --000000000000f23da70619ff16d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think separating the remote radio heads from the fronthaul concentrator enables software defined radios to some extent. In the most simple case, the radio heads send its DAC over the 100Gb/s serial. I think the practical max bandwidth for wide band is 500MHz so sampling at Nyquist would align with 1000 MHz and could be carried over a 100Gb/s serial link. This is analogous to the PHY split in DAA. The challenge with a PHY split is that the MAC/PHY interactions have a latency minimum. eCPRI sets the max latency to 100 usecs over the fronthaul link. DAA gives a MAC split option too so the PHY/MAC can be colocated on the same die or board. My thoughts are that Wi-Fi Multilink Operation (MLO) is a game changer, even without fronthaul networks, per the many radios mapping to one "system" MAC. Multiple radios over spacetime should improve Wi-Fi responsiveness significantly. The break between a lower MAC and upper MAC defined per MLO seems to be a natural break between the fronthaul concentrator and the remote radio head. I think we need to move off the Sun workstation and FreeBSD model. That was done in the 1970s or so. Transitioning to hardware and providing some form of software defined radios seems a good attempt and exceptional improvements. Bob On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 5:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht wrot= e: > As I am doing, also, would be to submit to a grant process from somewhere > - ardc is who I am targeting primarily with my proposal, but nlnet has be= en > a consistent funder, and (sometimes), comcast. I keep hoping the telecom > infrastructure project gains clue with their openwifi group - but far too > few overall can understand the vision you have. I was hoping that now tha= t > enough people knew that starlink had gone fq_codel that there would be a > rush to implement - but noooooo.... > > and you want to go waaaay beyond that. I think talking about where you > want to go in front of 802.11 would be a great place to start. I was > planning on attending netdevconf in san jose in mid july, the next 802.11 > wg meeting is in montreal > > https://web.cvent.com/event/64f6931c-b20d-44af-a54e-4830fa2f7097/summary > > > On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 5:11=E2=80=AFPM Bob McMahon > wrote: > >> I'm interested in group designing an open API or equivalent over a high >> speed serial/digital interface to drive a remote Wi-Fi lower MAC, digita= l >> PHY, analog PHY, CMOS radio(s) and front end modules. The upper MAC woul= d >> reside in the fronthaul concentrator and be remote, supporting up to 48 = MAC >> lowers. Hopefully scale to maybe to higher. Basically, Wi-Fi goes point= to >> point into the fronthaul concentrator, i.e. following the evolution of >> ethernet switching but without the CAT 5 for the final leash. >> >> The L2TPv3 w/pseudowires used for eCRPI are an analogy. So is DAA of >> cable plant OSP. >> >> Assume the seriali interface speed is a minimum of 10Gb/s but will go t= o >> 100Gb/s and then likely to 800b/s. All at very low power and guiding th= e >> photons to/from their destinations with last meter wireless. >> >> WiFi control and 802.11 packets would be carried over this interface. >> >> Can't be a NIC/sun workstation model on these remote radio heads >> requiring expensive CPUs and way too much power. This will also isolate >> WiFi radios from the SoCs and the internal switches, typically found in >> todays' APs, which is a bit of a Frankenstein design the industry has >> adopted for some unknown reasons. >> >> Bob >> >> On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 4:45=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast < >> make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >> >>> There is HUGE NSF grant coming available concerning wifi, and I was als= o >>> thinking that applying to ardc might be an option. >>> >>> Does anyone here still care enough about wifi to want to participate? I= n >>> my case I would like to gear up mainly to get into and stay >>> in the wifi8 standardization process in the IEEE, although I am >>> surfacing to fix some bugs and try to make improvements in the mt79 chi= pset >>> which is thus far, pretty amazing. I am really pleased with OpenWrt on = this >>> chip, so far. An OpenWrt one should be arriving any day.... >>> >>> Anyway, a start at a proposal for ardc is here: >>> >>> >>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x2HBYmSJbMoVMbLzKgkOVSvMnIFZdJQE823= Jlg0mfX0/edit?usp=3Dsharing >>> >>> >>> -- >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DBVFWSyMp3xg&t=3D1098s Waves Podcast >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Make-wifi-fast mailing list >>> Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast >> >> >> This electronic communication and the information and any files >> transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intende= d >> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed a= nd >> may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protec= ted >> by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else.= If >> you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for deliver= ing >> the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any u= se, >> copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying o= f >> this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error= , >> please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, an= d >> destroy any printed copy of it. > > > > -- > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DBVFWSyMp3xg&t=3D1098s Waves Podcast > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > --=20 This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted= =20 with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for=20 the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain= =20 information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy= =20 laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are=20 not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the=20 e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of= =20 this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,= =20 please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and= =20 destroy any printed copy of it. --000000000000f23da70619ff16d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think separating the remote radio heads from the frontha= ul concentrator enables software defined=C2=A0radios to some extent. In the= most simple case, the radio heads send its DAC over the 100Gb/s serial. I = think the practical max bandwidth for wide band is 500MHz so sampling at Ny= quist would align with 1000 MHz and could be carried over a 100Gb/s serial = link. This is analogous=C2=A0to the PHY split in DAA.

The challenge = with a PHY split is that the MAC/PHY interactions have a latency minimum.= =C2=A0 eCPRI sets the max latency to 100 usecs over the fronthaul link. DAA= gives a MAC split option too so the PHY/MAC can be colocated on the same d= ie or board.

My thoughts are that Wi-Fi Multilink Operation (MLO) is= a game changer, even without fronthaul networks, per the many radios mappi= ng to one "system" MAC. Multiple radios over spacetime should imp= rove Wi-Fi responsiveness significantly. The break between a lower MAC and = upper MAC defined per MLO seems to be a natural break between the fronthaul= concentrator and the remote radio head.=C2=A0

I think we need to mo= ve off the Sun workstation and FreeBSD model. That was done in the 1970s or= so. Transitioning to hardware and providing=C2=A0some form of software def= ined radios seems a good attempt and exceptional improvements.

Bob=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 5:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
As I a= m doing, also, would be to submit to a grant process from somewhere - ardc = is who I am targeting=C2=A0primarily with my proposal, but nlnet has been a= consistent funder, and (sometimes), comcast. I keep hoping the telecom inf= rastructure project gains clue with their openwifi group - but far too few = overall can understand the vision you have. I was hoping that now that enou= gh people knew that starlink had gone fq_codel that there would be a rush t= o implement - but noooooo....

and you want to go waaaay = beyond that. I think talking about where you want to go in front of 802.11 = would be a great place to start. I was planning on attending netdevconf in = san jose in mid july, the next 802.11 wg meeting is in montreal
<= br>

<= br>
On Sun,= Jun 2, 2024 at 5:11=E2=80=AFPM Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com> wrote:<= br>
I'm interested in group designing an open API or equivalent over a hig= h speed serial/digital interface to drive a remote Wi-Fi lower MAC, digital= PHY, analog PHY, CMOS radio(s) and front end modules. The upper MAC would = reside in the fronthaul concentrator and be remote, supporting up to 48 MAC= lowers. Hopefully scale to maybe to higher.=C2=A0 Basically, Wi-Fi goes po= int to point into the fronthaul concentrator, i.e. following the evolution = of ethernet switching but without the CAT 5 for the final leash.

The= L2TPv3 w/pseudowires=C2=A0used for eCRPI are an analogy. So is DAA of cabl= e plant OSP.

Assume the seriali interface speed is=C2=A0 a minimum o= f 10Gb/s but will go to 100Gb/s and then likely to 800b/s.=C2=A0 All at ver= y=C2=A0low power and guiding the photons to/from their destinations with la= st meter wireless.

WiFi control and 802.11 packets would be carried = over this interface.=C2=A0

Can't be a NIC/sun workstation=C2=A0m= odel on these remote radio heads requiring expensive CPUs and way too much = power. This will also isolate WiFi radios from=C2=A0 the SoCs and the inter= nal switches, typically found in=C2=A0 todays' APs, which is a bit of a= Frankenstein design the industry has adopted for some unknown reasons.=C2= =A0

Bob

On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 4:45=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Make-w= ifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
There is H= UGE NSF grant coming available concerning wifi, and I was also thinking tha= t applying to ardc might be an option.

Does anyone here = still care enough about wifi to want to participate? In my case I would lik= e to gear up mainly to get into and stay
in the wifi8 standardiza= tion process in the IEEE, although I am surfacing to fix some bugs and try = to make improvements in the mt79 chipset which is thus far, pretty amazing.= I am really pleased with OpenWrt on this chip, so far. An OpenWrt one shou= ld be arriving any day....

Anyway, a start at a pr= oposal for ardc is here:

--
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
_______________________________________________
Make-wifi-fast mailing list
M= ake-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wif= i-fast

This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it.


--
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos

This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. 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