From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x531.google.com (mail-ed1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::531]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71B9B3B2A4 for ; Tue, 18 May 2021 19:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x531.google.com with SMTP id b17so13210211ede.0 for ; Tue, 18 May 2021 16:32:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ES8YUk7GkeKmU/N9PQLdpR1dbB6cVrQbH2LUzJNhWxI=; b=ddm3IAVjvN4cHDSf0Be+u2vtcbJApB9dM4yOjf8UgOY8Ipcc/nalUkaYBuFiEfchgt amxEWFaPAJXdYdqOhRHGCfxacobjswtNwWD9SrTOJ+Sr0LhFBQchtc8wLGD0HFxZIO3W IbrlyyhrEamzYkdpyphUfwOwW+40DahnxyNyg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ES8YUk7GkeKmU/N9PQLdpR1dbB6cVrQbH2LUzJNhWxI=; b=j78hTN/oELyiRYcG14Q5f0pwCjaMN54GSEUKv6oHTBmSCEU10TIa4yeUbBOCIfWbQr IPH6BL5QM5a6MMlbQSbr3tdmdDDpfp1d16wPlagO4jpuF9xJd5Icy5rH956o7P8zhGmm V25+3Lw+d/SNTLm0IZyArcy+49J97X5tnwHGh04t4tHQfd8rnnjvjqy1YOQMrML7fP73 zYmjLm2NiICFOLQziHlzPB02zkVuQ0pt6FDDLYPSMyhYDELBZ/QSmQXh+wR+FS/5MvUv 0Sdi5E8FmRtyHxdasxyNVwU3TXQW1UExOXXguskPYeMScib0S/jvrA7DcSoM4ZiFfbvA UN4g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5324jinUS6V8fhq2tivGZus4iSbAIFhg5Ct5QFOx9WkV85yWViga Ia8dvqAR+DAjyLWH8E2rdeK/XUM99QSAx5NzXPXTsn1dKWJJ5JopM9nx34tinIz0ug2+u1MHsTL eJVqEE8gGnUpFJ63+UaDisqlwLkYG1Ag3Ed2NRrhRwueczc0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwNOh7CAOl084Y/S9BJkXejI8O24MTAq4hMHatqk06bwFbhJ1I/FqqX9opWmxZgAsIpJN5DJxYciIBaeFHq9Z8= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:de19:: with SMTP id h25mr10041369edv.84.1621380735850; Tue, 18 May 2021 16:32:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <011601d74c30$d2bea690$783bf3b0$@hanekom.net> In-Reply-To: <011601d74c30$d2bea690$783bf3b0$@hanekom.net> From: Bob McMahon Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 16:32:04 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jannie Hanekom Cc: Make-Wifi-fast Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="000000000000d5735b05c2a31ea9" Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] 2.4Ghz hybrid wiring for nest protects X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 23:32:17 -0000 --000000000000d5735b05c2a31ea9 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ce9c6905c2a31e14" --000000000000ce9c6905c2a31e14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, this whole thread should start with a disclaimer of *no responsibility nor liability for any opinions expressed*. I'm not a lawyer and not sure the best way to write such disclaimers, but I fully understand the seriousness of fire alerting and that a WiFi discussion group is not a place to go for anything more than discussion and opinions. As some background, and way off topic for sure, I called the local fire department and they said there is no current requirement for a floor to floor alerting system on older buildings. I then asked if they would have their kids live in such a building and the answer was, "I can't answer that." And any other following question I had was "google it" because "we, the fire department, don't want to take liability for something we can't affect." I also spoke with a person who runs a fire consulting business and he said not having alerting on the egress escapes was not safe, particularly for higher level floors. I found that a professionally installed alerting system would cost $60K to $100K. This is just alerting, not suppression. Needless to say, the HOA doesn't have such funds. Each unit has a few chirp alarms which seems to be sufficient for the fire department w/respect to them not hindering "real estate transactions" because real estate business is serious too. The fire dept would get crushed politically if they imposed $100K bills on people trying to meet their rents. Note: they will get involved when a building has major improvements but, until then, they're basically trying to avoid any kind of liability and they only get involved after the building department asks them too. In other words, the building is not going to be honestly evaluated for fire safety by anyone in a position of expertise and responsibility until it undergoes a major remodel - which will force most people out. I find reality usually is what it is vs what I'd like it to be. NO RESPONSIBILITY AND NO LIABILITY applies to all from my perspective. And please don't think I'd trust anyone here for such a system that affects human life. Not meaning to be disparaging to anyone. Bob On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 2:57 PM Jannie Hanekom wrote: > (This contribution is probably drifting a bit off topic significantly. > Apologies for that.) > > > > I have to acknowledge: As someone who lacks the expert-level technical > knowledge most contributors on this list have, what I say doesn=E2=80=99t= carry > much weight. I=E2=80=99m here mostly because I enjoy the content. But, = I have a > few concerns I=E2=80=99d like to raise, mostly related to safety=E2=80=A6 > > - Fire is a serious matter. As well-intentioned as it may be, using a > prosumer-grade fire alerting product in an commercial or high-density > residential setting may not be appropriate. It=E2=80=99s one thing fo= r the > occupant of a residential unit to install their own device. It=E2=80= =99s something > quite different to use it as part of the services a building offers to= its > tenants. > - Creating a building-sized 2.4Ghz antenna sounds like an interesting > experiment, but wouldn=E2=80=99t the noise-floor being prohibitively h= igh? > - Supporting such an environment on your day off would be a > challenge. That=E2=80=99s important considering the functionality the= solution has > to deliver. > - Something I=E2=80=99ve learnt about loops and other redundant system= s is > that their reliability benefits are only as good as the processes that > monitor them for failures. Passive cable is really hard to monitor. > > > > Then, as someone occasionally involved in deployments of commercial > off-the-shelf solutions through my $dayjob, I=E2=80=99d argue that the > =E2=80=9Ctraditional=E2=80=9D route of installing a bunch of CAT6 and one= or more APs per > unit (if the solution **had** to be Nest Protects) would likely score > higher on availability, performance and supportability. (If you=E2=80=99= re talking > Zigbee not WiFi then I=E2=80=99m even further out of my depth, but I=E2= =80=99d argue the > same points still apply.) > > > > Jannie > > > > > > *Van:* Make-wifi-fast *Nam= ens > *Bob McMahon via Make-wifi-fast > *Gestuur:* Maandag 17 Mei 2021 20:09 > *Aan:* Make-Wifi-fast > *Onderwerp:* [Make-wifi-fast] 2.4Ghz hybrid wiring for nest protects > > > > Hi All, > > There is a historic building that has 5 floors and no fire alerting > associated with the rear fire escape ladder. I'm considering installing > nest protects in each unit near the rear egress to alert of the fire esca= pe > is compromised by fire. My guess is floor to floor wireless communication= s > may not work too well. > > > > I'm thinking about cleaning up the communications runs in the rear of the > building. The cable company did a shoddy job of hanging cable for TV > services in the 80s. It seems a good time to add communications conduit a= nd > run more modern cabling. > > As part of this, I'm considering running LMR 600 cabling on the exterior > brick wall to act as 2.4Ghz communications wave guides. I was thinking ma= ke > a loop but break the loop at each floor with a 2.4Ghz wilkinson power > divider > . > Then bore a hole into each unit and install a 2.4Ghz patch antenna > > pm each rear interior wall. Each unit would then install a Nest protect o= n > the ceiling from the patch antenna. The ring or loop topology I think giv= es > a bit of redundancy. > > Thoughts on if this would achieve the goals of supporting nest protect > communications for such a building? > > Bob > --=20 This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted= =20 with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for=20 the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain= =20 information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy= =20 laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are=20 not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the=20 e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of= =20 this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,= =20 please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and= =20 destroy any printed copy of it. --000000000000ce9c6905c2a31e14 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yeah, this whole thread should start with a disclaimer of = no responsibility=C2=A0nor lia= bility=C2=A0for any opinions=C2=A0expressed. I'm not a lawyer and n= ot sure the best way to write such disclaimers, but I fully understand the = seriousness of fire alerting and that a WiFi discussion group is not a plac= e to go for anything more than discussion and opinions.

As some back= ground, and way off topic for sure, I called the local fire department and = they said there is no current=C2=A0requirement for a floor to floor alertin= g system on older buildings. I then asked if they would have their kids liv= e in such a building and the answer was, "I can't answer that.&quo= t; And any other following question I had was "google it" because= "we, the fire department, don't want to take liability for someth= ing=C2=A0we can't affect."=C2=A0I also spoke with a person who run= s a fire consulting business and he said not having alerting on the egress = escapes was not safe, particularly for higher level=C2=A0floors.

I = found that a professionally installed alerting system would cost $60K to $1= 00K. This is just alerting, not suppression. Needless to say, the HOA doesn= 't have such funds. Each unit has a few chirp alarms which seems to be = sufficient for the fire department w/respect to them not hindering=C2=A0&qu= ot;real estate transactions" because real estate business is serious= =C2=A0too. The fire dept would get crushed politically if they imposed $100= K bills on people trying to meet their=C2=A0rents. Note: they will=C2=A0get= involved when a building has major improvements but, until then, they'= re basically trying to avoid any kind of liability and they only get involv= ed after the building department asks them too. In other words, the buildin= g is not going to be honestly evaluated for fire safety by anyone in a posi= tion of expertise and responsibility until it undergoes a major remodel - w= hich will force most people out. I find reality usually is what it is vs wh= at I'd like it to be.

NO RESPONSIBILITY AND NO LIABILITY applies= to all from my perspective.

And please don't think I'd tru= st anyone here for such a system that affects human life. Not meaning to be= disparaging to anyone.

Bob



On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 2:57 = PM Jannie Hanekom <jannie@hanekom.= net> wrote:

(This = contribution is probably drifting a bit off topic significantly.=C2=A0 Apol= ogies for that.)

=C2=A0

I have to acknowledg= e: As someone who lacks the expert-level technical knowledge most contribut= ors on this list have, what I say doesn=E2=80=99t carry much weight.=C2=A0 = I=E2=80=99m here mostly because I enjoy the content.=C2=A0 But, I have a fe= w concerns I=E2=80=99d like to raise, mostly related to safety=E2=80=A6 =

  • = Fire is a serious matter.=C2=A0 As well-intentioned as it may be, usi= ng a prosumer-grade fire alerting product in an commercial or high-density = residential setting may not be appropriate.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s one thing fo= r the occupant of a residential unit to install their own device.=C2=A0 It= =E2=80=99s something quite different to use it as part of the services a bu= ilding offers to its tenants.
  • Creat= ing a building-sized 2.4Ghz antenna sounds like an interesting experiment, = but wouldn=E2=80=99t the noise-floor being prohibitively high?
  • Supporting such an environment on your day off = would be a challenge.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s important considering the functi= onality the solution has to deliver.
  • Something I=E2=80=99ve learnt about loops and other redundant systems is = that their reliability benefits are only as good as the processes that moni= tor them for failures.=C2=A0 Passive cable is really hard to monitor.

=C2=A0<= /span>

Then, as someone occasionally involv= ed in deployments of commercial off-the-shelf solutions through my $dayjob,= I=E2=80=99d argue that the =E2=80=9Ctraditional=E2=80=9D route of installi= ng a bunch of CAT6 and one or more APs per unit (if the solution *had* to be Nest Protects) would likely score higher on availability, performa= nce and supportability.=C2=A0 (If you=E2=80=99re talking Zigbee not WiFi th= en I=E2=80=99m even further out of my depth, but I=E2=80=99d argue the same= points still apply.)

= =C2=A0

Jannie

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Van: Make-wifi-fast <make-wi= fi-fast-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> Namens Bob McMahon via= Make-wifi-fast
Gestuur: Maandag 17 Mei 2021 20:09
Aan:= Make-Wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Onder= werp: [Make-wifi-fast] 2.4Ghz hybrid wiring for nest protects=

=C2=A0

Hi All,

=

There is a historic building that has 5 floors = and no fire alerting associated with the rear fire escape ladder. I'm c= onsidering installing nest protects in each unit near the rear egress to al= ert of the=C2=A0fire escape is compromised=C2=A0by fire. My guess is floor = to floor wireless communications may not work too well.

=C2=A0

I'm thinking about cleaning= up the communications runs in the rear of the building. The cable company = did a shoddy job of hanging cable for TV services in the 80s. It seems a go= od time to add communications conduit and run more modern cabling.

A= s part of this, I'm considering running LMR 600 cabling on the exterior= brick wall to act as 2.4Ghz communications wave guides. I was thinking mak= e a loop but break the loop at each floor with a 2.4Ghz wilkinson power divider. Then bore a hole into each unit an= d install a 2.4Ghz patch antenna pm each re= ar interior wall. Each unit would then install a Nest protect on the ceilin= g from the patch antenna. The=C2=A0ring or loop topology I think gives a bi= t of redundancy.

Thoughts on if this would achieve the goals of supp= orting nest protect communications for such a building?

Bob


This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it. --000000000000ce9c6905c2a31e14-- --000000000000d5735b05c2a31ea9 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIQagYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIQWzCCEFcCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg gg3BMIIFDTCCA/WgAwIBAgIQeEqpED+lv77edQixNJMdADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADBMMSAwHgYD VQQLExdHbG9iYWxTaWduIFJvb3QgQ0EgLSBSMzETMBEGA1UEChMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjETMBEGA1UE AxMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjAeFw0yMDA5MTYwMDAwMDBaFw0yODA5MTYwMDAwMDBaMFsxCzAJBgNVBAYT AkJFMRkwFwYDVQQKExBHbG9iYWxTaWduIG52LXNhMTEwLwYDVQQDEyhHbG9iYWxTaWduIEdDQyBS MyBQZXJzb25hbFNpZ24gMiBDQSAyMDIwMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA vbCmXCcsbZ/a0fRIQMBxp4gJnnyeneFYpEtNydrZZ+GeKSMdHiDgXD1UnRSIudKo+moQ6YlCOu4t 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