From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x531.google.com (mail-ed1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::531]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A3233CB37 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 00:39:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x531.google.com with SMTP id y12so27365171edo.6 for ; Mon, 02 Aug 2021 21:39:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/Eqxe1/GaHHo5LQ61pqs1oQ0y2wLqcX4lDEQiNHoWR0=; b=IBckqoktmWD9+Z2HnPYKIVV0WlXnkWUSf9IlgfRqxQGtCOYOwtI7zIFYAJ15eyG614 r2HxND/itS4hGHvv92mJVXqzQ7YtJxC8JejOg1pSPz1BX0eWCrAkZymButvL8NOpGeju FF/gQh4RkY6wmWHhScXjj0MtDcSrWlBSi2UwQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/Eqxe1/GaHHo5LQ61pqs1oQ0y2wLqcX4lDEQiNHoWR0=; b=IFY0fT+Z0fYrqPUxSb49W3Zg5cTwOMg05sKtGkrWDSUlQmodac3rcIzhAZ7lz3wRPz it9pmV7THibOL5/ddUY+rzAkEyWlh69vz+LNB+mpEMBnnbiYqmCfyQczDKHsqvU6Q2cZ DI0ePTs7/XxMp1dw5pUaHFivjQVQb9LAYqscN5d7QNnh2TSSm+uusgbHT85G7rWjc0Mb 9+aXEWqvDjcoT2YA9QHNORNMG1VB2X6Rn4rvfHSKwbVukF78sXcg/N5MmMswj/t5nHKD GC3ma3kEhwPlOK+YP/BM1RKc5Q8FBDGHsq2s0Vzbk4HQ/Bkqdm2CJ0xnN+kkw6Dgbjrj 4AUg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ygQeci63tulCCtwdKAnpF3UMQuFSquD9FJDYU9mhItVJGdtfL arYXspe1FTRmdqPw7Wysv1OHaF+PzsZTGzPmNKIE+ubggOexh6uUTNZVwLkrXH1qkq4hpwIZYeB o11p2J8OUL3OHeXAWNHn7eydN/5qNgoAC51JzYE730g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyhaAslnbAvPGx8h7IdOW78vuvc5SGzuOgH4u98Xpyw5ZAcAMyMopexzB17cHqZjtQ680L2iRQXXd3e3jl8VXM= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:c357:: with SMTP id j23mr8685201edr.370.1627965539651; Mon, 02 Aug 2021 21:38:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1625188609.32718319@apps.rackspace.com> <989de0c1-e06c-cda9-ebe6-1f33df8a4c24@candelatech.com> <1625773080.94974089@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: From: Bob McMahon Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 21:38:48 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: Ben Greear , Luca Muscariello , Cake List , Make-Wifi-fast , Leonard Kleinrock , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, cerowrt-devel , bloat Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="000000000000b8d1f105c8a0432a" Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] [Cake] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 04:39:01 -0000 --000000000000b8d1f105c8a0432a Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b3237705c8a043e3" --000000000000b3237705c8a043e3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" fair enough, but for this "RF emulator device" being able to support distance matrices, even hollow symmetric ones, is much better than what's typically done. The variable solid state phase shifters are 0-360 so don't provide real time delays either. This is another "something is better than nothing" type proposal. I think it can be deployed at a relatively low cost which allows for more standardized, automated test rigs and much less human interactions and human errors. Bob On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 9:30 PM David Lang wrote: > symmetry is not always (or usually) true. stations are commonly heard at > much > larger distances than they can talk, mobile devices have much less > transmit > power (becuase they are operating on batteries) than fixed stations, and > when > you adjust the transmit power on a station, you don't adjust it's receive > sensitivity. > > David Lang > > On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 20:23:06 -0700 > > From: Bob McMahon > > To: David Lang > > Cc: Ben Greear , > > Luca Muscariello , > > Cake List , > > Make-Wifi-fast , > > Leonard Kleinrock , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, > > codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, > > cerowrt-devel , > > bloat > > Subject: Re: [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug > 2: > > Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board > > > > The distance matrix defines signal attenuations/loss between pairs. It's > > straightforward to create a distance matrix that has hidden nodes because > > all "signal loss" between pairs is defined. Let's say a 120dB > attenuation > > path will cause a node to be hidden as an example. > > > > A B C D > > A - 35 120 65 > > B - 65 65 > > C - 65 > > D - > > > > So in the above, AC are hidden from each other but nobody else is. It > does > > assume symmetry between pairs but that's typically true. > > > > The RF device takes these distance matrices as settings and calculates > the > > five branch tree values (as demonstrated in the video). There are > > limitations to solutions though but I've found those not to be an issue > to > > date. I've been able to produce hidden nodes quite readily. Add the phase > > shifters and spatial stream powers can also be affected, but this isn't > > shown in this simple example. > > > > Bob > > > > On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 8:12 PM David Lang wrote: > > > >> I guess it depends on what you are intending to test. If you are not > going > >> to > >> tinker with any of the over-the-air settings (including the number of > >> packets > >> transmitted in one aggregate), the details of what happen over the air > >> don't > >> matter much. > >> > >> But if you are going to be doing any tinkering with what is getting > sent, > >> and > >> you ignore the hidden transmitter type problems, you will create a > >> solution that > >> seems to work really well in the lab and falls on it's face out in the > >> wild > >> where spectrum overload and hidden transmitters are the norm (at least > in > >> urban > >> areas), not rare corner cases. > >> > >> you don't need to include them in every test, but you need to have a way > >> to > >> configure your lab to include them before you consider any > >> settings/algorithm > >> ready to try in the wild. > >> > >> David Lang > >> > >> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote: > >> > >>> We find four nodes, a primary BSS and an adjunct one quite good for > lots > >> of > >>> testing. The six nodes allows for a primary BSS and two adjacent ones. > >> We > >>> want to minimize complexity to necessary and sufficient. > >>> > >>> The challenge we find is having variability (e.g. montecarlos) that's > >>> reproducible and has relevant information. Basically, the distance > >> matrices > >>> have h-matrices as their elements. Our chips can provide these > >> h-matrices. > >>> > >>> The parts for solid state programmable attenuators and phase shifters > >>> aren't very expensive. A device that supports a five branch tree and > 2x2 > >>> MIMO seems a very good starting point. > >>> > >>> Bob > >>> > >>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 4:55 PM Ben Greear > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On 8/2/21 4:16 PM, David Lang wrote: > >>>>> If you are going to setup a test environment for wifi, you need to > >>>> include the ability to make a fe cases that only happen with RF, not > >> with > >>>> wired networks and > >>>>> are commonly overlooked > >>>>> > >>>>> 1. station A can hear station B and C but they cannot hear each other > >>>>> 2. station A can hear station B but station B cannot hear station A > 3. > >>>> station A can hear that station B is transmitting, but not with a > strong > >>>> enough signal to > >>>>> decode the signal (yes in theory you can work around interference, > but > >>>> in practice interference is still a real thing) > >>>>> > >>>>> David Lang > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> To add to this, I think you need lots of different station devices, > >>>> different capabilities (/n, /ac, /ax, etc) > >>>> different numbers of spatial streams, and different distances from the > >>>> AP. From download queueing perspective, changing > >>>> the capabilities may be sufficient while keeping all stations at same > >>>> distance. This assumes you are not > >>>> actually testing the wifi rate-ctrl alg. itself, so different > throughput > >>>> levels for different stations would be enough. > >>>> > >>>> So, a good station emulator setup (and/or pile of real stations) and a > >> few > >>>> RF chambers and > >>>> programmable attenuators and you can test that setup... > >>>> > >>>> From upload perspective, I guess same setup would do the job. > >>>> Queuing/fairness might depend a bit more on the > >>>> station devices, emulated or otherwise, but I guess a clever AP could > >>>> enforce fairness in upstream direction > >>>> too by implementing per-sta queues. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, > >>>> Ben > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Ben Greear > >>>> Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > -- This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of it. --000000000000b3237705c8a043e3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
fair enough, but for this "RF emulator device" b= eing able to support distance matrices, even hollow symmetric ones, is much= better than what's typically done.=C2=A0The variable solid state phase= shifters=C2=A0are 0-360 so don't provide real time delays either.
<= br>This is another "something is better than nothing" type propos= al. I think it can be deployed at a relatively low cost which allows for mo= re standardized, automated test rigs and much less human interactions and h= uman errors.=C2=A0

Bob

On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 9:30 PM David Lang <= ;david@lang.hm> wrote:
symmetry is not always (or u= sually) true. stations are commonly heard at much
larger distances than they can talk, mobile devices have much less transmit=
power (becuase they are operating on batteries) than fixed stations, and wh= en
you adjust the transmit power on a station, you don't adjust it's r= eceive
sensitivity.

David Lang

=C2=A0 On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote:

> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 20:23:06 -0700
> From: Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com>
> To: David Lang <= david@lang.hm>
> Cc: Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Luca Muscariello <muscariello@ieee.org>,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cake List <cake@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Make-Wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.= net>,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Leonard Kleinrock <lk@cs.ucla.edu>, starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net,=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0codel@lists.bufferbloat.net,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cerowrt-devel <cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net= >,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Au= g 2:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet arch= itecture board
>
> The distance matrix defines signal attenuations/loss between pairs.=C2= =A0 It's
> straightforward to create a distance matrix that has hidden nodes beca= use
> all "signal=C2=A0 loss" between pairs is defined.=C2=A0 Let&= #39;s say a 120dB attenuation
> path will cause a node to be hidden as an example.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A=C2=A0 =C2=A0 B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0C=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = D
> A=C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A035=C2=A0 =C2=A0120=C2=A0 =C2=A065
> B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 65=C2=A0 =C2= =A065
> C=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A065
> D=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-
>
> So in the above, AC are hidden from each other but nobody else is. It = does
> assume symmetry between pairs but that's typically true.
>
> The RF device takes these distance matrices as settings and calculates= the
> five branch tree values (as demonstrated in the video). There are
> limitations to solutions though but I've found those not to be an = issue to
> date. I've been able to produce hidden nodes quite readily. Add th= e phase
> shifters and spatial stream powers can also be affected, but this isn&= #39;t
> shown in this simple example.
>
> Bob
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 8:12 PM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>
>> I guess it depends on what you are intending to test. If you are n= ot going
>> to
>> tinker with any of the over-the-air settings (including the number= of
>> packets
>> transmitted in one aggregate), the details of what happen over the= air
>> don't
>> matter much.
>>
>> But if you are going to be doing any tinkering with what is gettin= g sent,
>> and
>> you ignore the hidden transmitter type problems, you will create a=
>> solution that
>> seems to work really well in the lab and falls on it's face ou= t in the
>> wild
>> where spectrum overload and hidden transmitters are the norm (at l= east in
>> urban
>> areas), not rare corner cases.
>>
>> you don't need to include them in every test, but you need to = have a way
>> to
>> configure your lab to include them before you consider any
>> settings/algorithm
>> ready to try in the wild.
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote:
>>
>>> We find four nodes, a primary BSS and an adjunct one quite goo= d for lots
>> of
>>> testing.=C2=A0 The six nodes allows for a primary BSS and two = adjacent ones.
>> We
>>> want to minimize complexity to necessary and sufficient.
>>>
>>> The challenge we find is having variability (e.g. montecarlos)= that's
>>> reproducible and has relevant information. Basically, the dist= ance
>> matrices
>>> have h-matrices as their elements. Our chips can provide these=
>> h-matrices.
>>>
>>> The parts for solid state programmable attenuators and phase s= hifters
>>> aren't very expensive. A device that supports a five branc= h tree and 2x2
>>> MIMO seems a very good starting point.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 4:55 PM Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>= ;
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8/2/21 4:16 PM, David Lang wrote:
>>>>> If you are going to setup a test environment for wifi,= you need to
>>>> include the ability to make a fe cases that only happen wi= th RF, not
>> with
>>>> wired networks and
>>>>> are commonly overlooked
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. station A can hear station B and C but they cannot = hear each other
>>>>> 2. station A can hear station B but station B cannot h= ear station A 3.
>>>> station A can hear that station B is transmitting, but not= with a strong
>>>> enough signal to
>>>>> decode the signal (yes in theory you can work around i= nterference, but
>>>> in practice interference is still a real thing)
>>>>>
>>>>> David Lang
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To add to this, I think you need lots of different station= devices,
>>>> different capabilities (/n, /ac, /ax, etc)
>>>> different numbers of spatial streams, and different distan= ces from the
>>>> AP.=C2=A0 From download queueing perspective, changing
>>>> the capabilities may be sufficient while keeping all stati= ons at same
>>>> distance.=C2=A0 This assumes you are not
>>>> actually testing the wifi rate-ctrl alg. itself, so differ= ent throughput
>>>> levels for different stations would be enough.
>>>>
>>>> So, a good station emulator setup (and/or pile of real sta= tions) and a
>> few
>>>> RF chambers and
>>>> programmable attenuators and you can test that setup... >>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 From upload perspective, I guess same setup would do= the job.
>>>> Queuing/fairness might depend a bit more on the
>>>> station devices, emulated or otherwise, but I guess a clev= er AP could
>>>> enforce fairness in upstream direction
>>>> too by implementing per-sta queues.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Ben
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>
>>>> Candela Technologies Inc=C2=A0 http://www.candelatech.com=
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it. --000000000000b3237705c8a043e3-- --000000000000b8d1f105c8a0432a Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIQagYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIQWzCCEFcCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg gg3BMIIFDTCCA/WgAwIBAgIQeEqpED+lv77edQixNJMdADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADBMMSAwHgYD VQQLExdHbG9iYWxTaWduIFJvb3QgQ0EgLSBSMzETMBEGA1UEChMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjETMBEGA1UE AxMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjAeFw0yMDA5MTYwMDAwMDBaFw0yODA5MTYwMDAwMDBaMFsxCzAJBgNVBAYT AkJFMRkwFwYDVQQKExBHbG9iYWxTaWduIG52LXNhMTEwLwYDVQQDEyhHbG9iYWxTaWduIEdDQyBS MyBQZXJzb25hbFNpZ24gMiBDQSAyMDIwMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA vbCmXCcsbZ/a0fRIQMBxp4gJnnyeneFYpEtNydrZZ+GeKSMdHiDgXD1UnRSIudKo+moQ6YlCOu4t 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