From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ot1-x32c.google.com (mail-ot1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A307F3B29E for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2023 16:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-6b708b97418so4428937a34.3 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:47:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; t=1689022065; x=1691614065; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=m9SgAcuRDUZzMUymai50EUUb4ultfVogmDUng8iBaIw=; b=A9Zl42FkhvZqdiUyTfKtwZN+f51hyxEkamGmGzEthoVIBHsCE7TM9Vt7BlTmyMSrjn oNEG+22RLpACnGkd7Z2/elG6ke6v0OVrDp2NWqAYDXRHG7vTpzDfjtED6MRay7pwM0fr UsaPBQyvkCDJBiXQ5zHVAwwokt67M5mjZS63I= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1689022065; x=1691614065; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=m9SgAcuRDUZzMUymai50EUUb4ultfVogmDUng8iBaIw=; b=ZrCJ7jor3pZXs7Ur2GGjrvYfOEZER2Za/OkT5a9x2Spv5cAQUbvXF0DC3ApCwKnlKW 8UcVh2H5QbVs2VBpZ2jui6xNf5eZSsO32umJDmtnGoih2Ho9nV7jOd8QfRwOAbF36S5l nzr7RV60RxsCmTarF4gfGblHd4FazICWPF1KVOmpYHWqEu7zDxdRFr+8lnds0FOum71y VCnyOdtsL1T1EBrxJ4ePDwGhitlL9dCIDQ6kfBdl8StW+o4X9A5WuryN4RzMVTMuMw6v 4ag0iFHGvWGKXuORg9/HGhTdlMktn4pb99KasCkd8hJgxAO51bRJYN1u/BREpnHjs71M m5EQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ABy/qLaXxfOJbgEsztd9lYx26He0CPK5ffscBBpGTlQxf//CiIJGo8PL ikiaEPtiPKf6rVbPdI0+S065FdCaX9kZaZOjtTWZZGpPPER5tEj2hghyP+kwK9kUZyQJQJg0Ha9 t3A8WHNcLfcLhtRfY2uIloCEi3IzH+qyCT0zHRTrgOgtdTbcHB6B5 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APBJJlFN3mYYTXGUIw9ROqqRMwR0WteQ9pfeeXQ4EpsTV5A1aqDCjOGtCMwhQg9wb29rNcYmPYXg7rPklYLxn0CZ+mc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:a454:b0:1ad:2e18:7086 with SMTP id n20-20020a056870a45400b001ad2e187086mr16012317oal.27.1689022064697; Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:47:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Bob McMahon Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:47:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: Aaron Wood Cc: Dave Taht , Make-Wifi-fast Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="00000000000036566206002818fe" Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] I used to dream of a single wifi cpu, memory, and I/O X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 20:47:45 -0000 --00000000000036566206002818fe Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002f5e290600281830" --0000000000002f5e290600281830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think of it as a micro translational bridge, i.e. get 802.11 to 802.3 to standard forwarding silicon (though some call it a "skinny" AP.) The "AP split" is between managing MAC/frame things and MAC/PHY things. Try to minimize the PHY knobs so the RRH can self-manage what's not been preset by the installer. Remove the sw config stuff on the RRH too as it just adds OPEX costs for limited benefit. Others see it as "bluetooth p2p" model applied to WiFi, but radio pairings at low latency, low power and high throughputs - though this mental model has some flaws too. I think the EAP architecture is woefully broken. "Centralizing the controllers" of distribution management isn't the same as *eliminating & mitigating the need to manage complex distributed things. *Linux computers are complex, distributed things and don't belong in homes unless the home is owned by a network and sys admin ;) The closest models seem to be ECPRI used by 5G towers or the distributed access architecture (DAA) of HFC. FiWi will blow those out of the water by my judgment - though those are OSP things and FiWi will start as an inside plant thing. We just have to figure out how to motivate humans as engineers & marketing experts to start moving in this direction. It seems like a no brainer that consumers will want to show off their "fiber" - inside plant, future proof, life support capable, resilient to failures, & something that increases the property or asset value of their primary investment. Maybe FTTH shouldn't be marketed as "Fiber to the Home" but "Fiber through the Home" with no more wires for comm anywhere? Bob On Mon, Jul 10, 2023 at 12:02=E2=80=AFPM Aaron Wood wro= te: > > > On Sun, Jul 9, 2023 at 10:40=E2=80=AFPM Bob McMahon via Make-wifi-fast < > make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> I wonder if treating WiFi like a transceiver is the better approach, >> separating "the computer abstraction" from the remote radio head. >> >> Then it's a RF Front End(s) / CMOS Radios / PHY(s) / 802.11 MAC(s) >> (lower) / 802.3 PAM4 / 100G SERDES / 4 1x25G VCSELs. Pluggable like an S= FP. >> >> The virtualized APs could support at least 10 and maybe 100s of these vi= a >> merchant switching silicon and could be kilometers away. The MACs lower >> could be simplified to dual queue a la L4S. No need for 4 AC queues per >> MAC. Might be able to throw away 802.11 retries too and let the upper >> layers handle it. >> > > Isn't this how the commercial APs that use a combined > backhaul/control-plane operate? > > I've often wanted to use something like OpenVSwitch to combine all the > layer-2 broadcast domains without actually making them a single broadcast > domain (central ARP responder/router, multicast-to-singlecast conversion, > mDNS routing instead of always using broadcasts, etc). I know that we we= re > looking at that with CeroWRT, early on, using routing between separate > subnets, but that required a bunch of proxies that never seemed to really > work as well as I wanted (or I wasn't very good at getting them set up > correctly). I think we're maybe in a better place for that now. > > Given that wifi stations must associate with APs, there's so much > knowledgeable state that can be centrally (and distributedly) cached and > then used to move a bunch of broadcast traffic to single-cast. With the > huge difference in encoding rates between broadcast and singlecast traffi= c, > especially as the number of STAs increases, it seems like it would be ver= y > beneficial. > > And if you were in the 1:1 AP<->STA situation that has floated across thi= s > list a few times (I do find the micro-AP idea fascinating), then all > "broadcast" traffic should hopefully become limited-transmit-power > single-cast, with minimal use of spectrum (both in terms of time and > physical space). > > One issue that I've seen with many APs in the same space, is that many > client stations are very aggressive enumerators of the available APs, muc= h > to the detriment of the operation of the system. I've seen clients DoS a= ll > the available spectrum with wildcard probe requests and their responses, > which sound like exactly the sort problems seen with ARP in very dense > server racks that the vswitch and central ARP server model was meant to > solve: have a single "best" response instead of flooding the network wit= h > responses (or requests, in the ARP case). > > May be a good time to simplify. >> > > It seems like perhaps a little more hierarchy/coordination could result i= n > more simple operation at scale. > > >> >> Bob >> >> On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 2:25=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast < >> make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >> >>> preferably using some sort of async circuitry for minimum interference >>> and power consumption. I figured, oh, 256MB would be more than enough >>> for a 10Gbit router. >>> >>> Instead, we can now layer 64GB on die. >>> >>> https://blocksandfiles.com/2023/07/05/3d-stacked-dram-and-processor-cub= e/ >>> >>> -- >>> Podcast: >>> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:705879391022711193= 7/ >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Make-wifi-fast mailing list >>> Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast >> >> >> This electronic communication and the information and any files >> transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intende= d >> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed a= nd >> may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protec= ted >> by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else.= If >> you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for deliver= ing >> the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any u= se, >> copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying o= f >> this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error= , >> please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, an= d >> destroy any printed copy of it. >> _______________________________________________ >> Make-wifi-fast mailing list >> Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast > > --=20 This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted= =20 with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for=20 the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain= =20 information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy= =20 laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are=20 not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the=20 e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of= =20 this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,= =20 please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and= =20 destroy any printed copy of it. --0000000000002f5e290600281830 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think=C2=A0of it as a micro translational bridge, i.e. g= et 802.11 to 802.3 to standard=C2=A0forwarding=C2=A0silicon (though some ca= ll it a "skinny" AP.) The "AP split" is between managin= g MAC/frame things and MAC/PHY things. Try to minimize the PHY knobs so the= RRH can self-manage what's not been preset by the installer. Remove th= e sw config stuff on the RRH too as it just adds OPEX costs for limited=C2= =A0benefit.

Others see it as "bluetooth p2p" model applied= to WiFi,=C2=A0 but radio pairings at low latency, low power and high throu= ghputs - though this mental model has some flaws too.

I think the EA= P architecture is woefully broken. "Centralizing=C2=A0the controllers&= quot; of distribution=C2=A0management=C2=A0isn't the same as eliminating & mitigating the need = to manage complex distributed things.=C2=A0=C2=A0Linux computers are co= mplex, distributed things and don't belong in homes unless the home is = owned by a network and sys admin=C2=A0;)

The closest models seem to = be ECPRI used by 5G towers or the distributed access architecture (DAA) of = HFC.

FiWi will blow those out of the water by my judgment - though t= hose are OSP things and FiWi will start as an inside plant thing.=C2=A0 We = just have to figure out how to motivate humans as engineers & marketing= experts to start moving in this direction. It seems like a no brainer that= consumers will want to show off their "fiber" - inside plant, fu= ture proof, life support capable, resilient to failures, & something th= at increases the property or asset value of their primary investment. Maybe= FTTH shouldn't be marketed as "Fiber to the Home" but "= Fiber through the Home" with no more wires for comm anywhere?

B= ob




On Mon, Jul 10, 2023 at 12:02=E2=80=AFPM Aaron Wood <<= a href=3D"mailto:woody77@gmail.com">woody77@gmail.com> wrote:


On Sun, Jul 9, 2023 at 10:40=E2=80=AFPM Bob McMahon via Mak= e-wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
I wonde= r if treating WiFi like a transceiver is the better approach, separating &q= uot;the computer abstraction" from the remote radio head.

Then = it's a RF Front End(s) / CMOS Radios / PHY(s) / 802.11 MAC(s) (lower) /= 802.3 PAM4 / 100G SERDES / 4 1x25G VCSELs. Pluggable like an SFP.

=
The virtualized APs could support at least 10 and maybe 100s of = these via merchant switching silicon and could be kilometers away. The MACs= lower could be simplified to dual queue a la L4S. No need for 4 AC queues = per MAC. Might be able to throw away 802.11 retries too and let the upper l= ayers handle it.

Isn't = this how the commercial APs that use a combined backhaul/control-plane oper= ate?

I've often wanted to use something like O= penVSwitch to combine all the layer-2 broadcast domains without actually ma= king them a single broadcast domain (central ARP responder/router, multicas= t-to-singlecast conversion, mDNS routing instead of always using broadcasts= , etc).=C2=A0 I know that we were looking at that with CeroWRT, early on, u= sing routing between separate subnets, but that required a bunch of proxies= that never seemed to really work as well as I wanted (or I wasn't very= good at getting them set up correctly).=C2=A0 I think we're maybe in a= better place for that now.

Given that wifi statio= ns must associate with APs, there's so=C2=A0much knowledgeable=C2=A0sta= te that can be centrally (and distributedly) cached and then used to move a= bunch of broadcast traffic to single-cast.=C2=A0 With the huge difference = in encoding rates between broadcast and singlecast traffic, especially as t= he number of STAs increases, it seems like it would be very beneficial.

And if you were in the 1:1 AP<->STA situation t= hat has floated across this list a few times (I do find the micro-AP idea f= ascinating), then all "broadcast" traffic should hopefully become= limited-transmit-power single-cast, with minimal use of spectrum (both in = terms of time and physical space).

One issue that = I've seen with many APs in the same space, is that many client stations= are very aggressive enumerators of the available APs, much to the detrimen= t of the operation of the system.=C2=A0 I've seen clients DoS all the a= vailable spectrum with wildcard probe requests and their responses, which s= ound like exactly the sort problems seen with ARP in very dense server rack= s that the vswitch and central ARP server model was meant to solve: =C2=A0h= ave a single "best" response instead of flooding the network with= responses (or requests, in the ARP case).

May be=C2=A0a g= ood time to simplify.

It se= ems like perhaps a little more hierarchy/coordination could result in more = simple operation at scale.
=C2=A0

Bob

On Fri, Jul 7, 2= 023 at 2:25=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists= .bufferbloat.net> wrote:
preferably using some sort of async circuitry for minimum i= nterference
and power consumption. I figured, oh, 256MB would be more than enough
for a 10Gbit router.

Instead, we can now layer 64GB on die.

https://blocksandfiles.com/= 2023/07/05/3d-stacked-dram-and-processor-cube/

--
Podcast: https://www.linked= in.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7058793910227111937/
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
_______________________________________________
Make-wifi-fast mailing list
M= ake-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wif= i-fast

This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it._______________________________________________ Make-wifi-fast mailing list
M= ake-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wif= i-fast

This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. 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