From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ej1-x631.google.com (mail-ej1-x631.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::631]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DA4C3B2A4 for ; Wed, 19 May 2021 00:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x631.google.com with SMTP id s22so17765906ejv.12 for ; Tue, 18 May 2021 21:47:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WUxsT3+0zbFvII7IGLl/tBIluMhurLSpJei53ZIh/pE=; b=Srzjvg7Du9iolrCE18pYRw+l0gquOM56zsbeMKyt6t938cGecJpU9V2Jd9EZRaRaHh nMWjvnEh3bX6wEft6EXJmon/SeyqNTyTvzlsz9iCbEbQ6JH20BqHK/XRBVIpHqI0mNWM HDEWvg9S75zWjW2CHpqv8FOJP2t8piOI9Iips= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WUxsT3+0zbFvII7IGLl/tBIluMhurLSpJei53ZIh/pE=; b=pwK+y5N7959Srl4vZDSmjFjAX1rjpUUaV9Qn6+Gu06ufMBsstg7uQfbQXJ44bItmxc Sz69s+hEJWTi5+d/UmLyivJcG5AKAmJREaAQtLtNsg2ks0CXDw0eljNz6J53NBp0UW0F BCjgq9v2QyTdHSW772EAuPVgYzhsGZ8Nbu7Fvo0gcmmsIXpGd9X1m2Hm6eDYozX0twaf wjsZ9vBUf1oT4Z7KSyF7QufSBSMail94CerDOd6EAQJw4c+kHpsvnJIIrj8vkRSlsVyA Mhd+PWlmQGIzfsSabtL2/3zGUbh0oK0A9fXIAZxzZ7jOMqHByRXZCFBiA15Sr0d1dAwO 7URA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530++idmmxbszb1ZUuaULwo2FqPEZzc/XFP3zqQF50viYAq5pi4L inHo2DCCZKqNNcx2zeZjFpf0eo30//FDKp5ao0hNsCz28XAG4w7idCVTgzEIDeNj6Bkt2ei5cxy dNihHmsHFCDYgk5BLfie/XzhUDEfZRMWd7j4zwen7f5xzl4KK6Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJylwtB1FiROTui50f5eqxGEY0bD/HyHGq8nzl6EuYBNKo79S5EsssYFKD3UkvWSb9sHc5893tSiaAY9AZJWdVU= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:7fd9:: with SMTP id r25mr10367120ejs.417.1621399637212; Tue, 18 May 2021 21:47:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <011601d74c30$d2bea690$783bf3b0$@hanekom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Bob McMahon Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 21:47:06 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: Jannie Hanekom , Make-Wifi-fast Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="0000000000007064e305c2a7856d" Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] 2.4Ghz hybrid wiring for nest protects X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 04:47:19 -0000 --0000000000007064e305c2a7856d Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006a866205c2a78595" --0000000000006a866205c2a78595 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks, this helps. Yeah, looking for "better than nothing" here for sure. I also gotta watch out for taking on liabilities myself. Disclaimers of no responsibility will need to be clear. I'm not understanding the connecting pairs together in your response. I was thinking of a single directional antenna per floor connected into a 2.4Ghz Wilkinson power divider with 22 dB isolation for the splits going to adjacent floors. This way each floor would reach one floor up and one floor down and no further. (I haven't yet measured the power outputs of the devices and of a heavily trafficked 2.4Ghz noise floor to make sure 22dB is sufficient.) I'd connect the bottom floor to the top floor the same way so basically each floor has one peer up and one peer down. |--> (3dB less per power split) to floor above Fire alarm (free space) Ant--->PD (0.5dB loss) | -- 22dB isolation between |--> (3dB less per power split) to floor below where PD is a Wilkinson power divider, 5 floors for 5 PDs. Then the LMR connects the Wilkinson's splits to each other. The LMR is external to the building (along the rear ladder) and the antennas internal. The floor logical topology becomes 5<-1<->2<->3<->4<->5->1 such that any single hop failure only impacts that floor. Passive materials will be military grade, hermetically sealed and inside conduit. The building has two sets of egress stairs so alerting per one set being compromised can direct to the other. The internal stairwell is connected floor to floor - that was required by the fire department (and was costly to the owners.) I was hoping to be able monitor the devices' topology and detect any changes using remote servers in the cloud. So far no luck in getting that information via an API that I can find. I think this is a critical piece, i.e. having always on servers bugging someone to pay attention to an unexpected topology change or a need for battery replacements. I don't think there'd be fire marshal approval for this but, even without that, I think this meets the "better than nothing" goal and isn't prohibitively expensive. Bob On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:09 PM David Lang wrote: > passive repeaters (two antennas connected together with no electronics) > work > much better than most people realize. > > I would do floor-by-floor antenna pairs, and if each device going off > should > trigger the one on the next floor, I'd consider spacing them out so that > you > don't have one antenna pair feeding a strong signal to the next pair. > > If the only purpose of this is to relay the fire alarm signals, use > high-gain, > narrow beamwidth antennas pointed at the alarms, this will do wonders at > overcoming the general noise on 2.4GHz > > I have too much radio experience to be happy trusting anything wireless > for > critical things, but where the alternative is no connectivity, it's better > than > nothing. > > David Lang > -- This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of it. --0000000000006a866205c2a78595 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks, this helps. Yeah, looking for "better than no= thing" here for sure. I also gotta watch out for taking on liabilities= myself. Disclaimers of no responsibility=C2=A0will need to be clear.
I'm not understanding the connecting pairs together in your response.=

I was thinking of a single directional antenna per floor connected = into a 2.4Ghz Wilkinson power divider with 22 dB isolation for the splits g= oing to adjacent floors. This way each floor would reach one floor up and o= ne floor down and no further. (I haven't yet measured the power outputs= of the devices and of a heavily trafficked 2.4Ghz noise floor to=C2=A0make= sure 22dB is sufficient.) I'd connect the bottom floor to the top floo= r the same way so basically each floor has one peer up and one peer down.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |--> (3dB less per powe= r split) to floor above
Fire alarm (free space)=C2=A0 Ant--->PD (0.5d= B loss) |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-- 22dB isolation between
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |--> (3dB less per power split) to floor below<= br>
where PD is a Wilkinson power divider, 5 floors for 5 PDs.

Th= en the LMR connects the Wilkinson's splits to each other. The LMR is ex= ternal to the building (along the rear ladder) and the antennas internal.= =C2=A0

The floor logical topology becomes 5<-1<->2<->= 3<->4<->5->1 such that any single hop failure only impacts t= hat floor. Passive materials will be military grade, hermetically sealed an= d inside conduit. The building has two sets of egress stairs so alerting pe= r one set being compromised can direct to the other. The internal stairwell= is connected floor to floor - that was required by the fire department (an= d was costly to the owners.)

I was hoping to be able monitor = the devices' topology and detect any=C2=A0changes using remote servers = in the cloud. So far no luck in getting that information via an API that=C2= =A0I can find. I think this is a critical piece, i.e. having always on serv= ers bugging someone to pay attention to an unexpected topology change or a = need for battery replacements.

I don't think there'd be fire= marshal approval for this but, even without that, I think this meets the &= quot;better than nothing" goal and isn't prohibitively expensive.<= br>
Bob

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:09 PM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
passive repeaters (two antennas connected= together with no electronics) work
much better than most people realize.

I would do floor-by-floor antenna pairs, and if each device going off shoul= d
trigger the one on the next floor, I'd consider spacing them out so tha= t you
don't have one antenna pair feeding a strong signal to the next pair.
If the only purpose of this is to relay the fire alarm signals, use high-ga= in,
narrow beamwidth antennas pointed at the alarms, this will do wonders at overcoming the general noise on 2.4GHz

I have too much radio experience to be happy trusting anything wireless for=
critical things, but where the alternative is no connectivity, it's bet= ter than
nothing.

David Lang

This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it. --0000000000006a866205c2a78595-- --0000000000007064e305c2a7856d Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIQagYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIQWzCCEFcCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg gg3BMIIFDTCCA/WgAwIBAgIQeEqpED+lv77edQixNJMdADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADBMMSAwHgYD VQQLExdHbG9iYWxTaWduIFJvb3QgQ0EgLSBSMzETMBEGA1UEChMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjETMBEGA1UE AxMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjAeFw0yMDA5MTYwMDAwMDBaFw0yODA5MTYwMDAwMDBaMFsxCzAJBgNVBAYT AkJFMRkwFwYDVQQKExBHbG9iYWxTaWduIG52LXNhMTEwLwYDVQQDEyhHbG9iYWxTaWduIEdDQyBS MyBQZXJzb25hbFNpZ24gMiBDQSAyMDIwMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA vbCmXCcsbZ/a0fRIQMBxp4gJnnyeneFYpEtNydrZZ+GeKSMdHiDgXD1UnRSIudKo+moQ6YlCOu4t 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