From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oo1-xc36.google.com (mail-oo1-xc36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E99BB3B29E for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2023 22:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oo1-xc36.google.com with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-565a8d9d832so3741688eaf.1 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2023 19:13:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; t=1689041627; x=1691633627; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=9xCXzxRwZIuo29oMgCGykE/F/YUZpO0j2An9JPhtC/o=; b=UplgBFsMi2KXqBVt1edCPxl8B77fviPz+NQF5Zk5TwGt4Gaod+DbNsTQVC/yFFP2Qe nvTO/DONnUNa/bdIzgKrJmsEwm4HYppUK9yDmo6lZOHoyG3AeWFYJjBFt3FhJmh29NGZ T0yMgdf+6xz7iZjA/2/XnkWRGLLP2lAi+4XJo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1689041627; x=1691633627; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=9xCXzxRwZIuo29oMgCGykE/F/YUZpO0j2An9JPhtC/o=; b=Ec/MdJlAsf3KETcuKkmuz4Xjao1+TwHXshZa9RYhBRoox88CPza4TtFWnH3Sk0S8i/ eYrvVYpE8dg6BQKFrc0D1O6KQfK3gv2uoUPALsRMTdnjemf/b+5IRxmEvfn1AMjhIe// j1AMVKG/+D9Xs3+ZcdZAVH13PL4gWwrxsiNkK/5jR6zwVde8SISlQLhrQjnAfBfQKbJa Zpuju2MzNAr3jvKKAKyasEtXrYSDjzuuQuFG/QtBej0qvpE8Mptmv11+dkQfKsbUY0im 1SZyeYTc+x+Mg4MEs1ypsxyZlNx/gIR/D/awkCIPu2A+BkU8iCFeukBqkpiA/GiFAh4b bEKw== X-Gm-Message-State: ABy/qLbwf+dru3mWQ5zaYwqEZ7MzW9LZnRpWFNd+B6uL3H5OLSR/VBZW /Cir85uSwo08RYgCB1fbockkM1TUmxXQ3QKay7TWPjNGpSBoDBtLqsAnhqX8Tsr78NfXFJZ+08n hyq976T4b/w9KYzNb+5e+tfBWcJwOXgxZsVY1EB7/aQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APBJJlE68M020ay66+UMdnmWBbWBtiyZBIeoQbyLG31DmkWqcrl4Y9Pm2IseZFM7JfRKjyuCrZZbKiu4TGJb8alWhg4= X-Received: by 2002:a4a:5344:0:b0:563:4287:16a3 with SMTP id n65-20020a4a5344000000b00563428716a3mr12452504oob.8.1689041626995; Mon, 10 Jul 2023 19:13:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <29385648-o20s-nn8q-2p3s-900sn8606857@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: From: Bob McMahon Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 19:13:34 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: Aaron Wood , Make-Wifi-fast Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="00000000000036d46f06002ca6b5" Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] I used to dream of a single wifi cpu, memory, and I/O X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 02:13:48 -0000 --00000000000036d46f06002ca6b5 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000304f3f06002ca6b7" --000000000000304f3f06002ca6b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" That you can build these networks to operate well says more about you than the guys supplying parts & equipment. Impressive real world knowledge for sure. Bob On Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 4:34 PM David Lang wrote: > First off, I am a Huge proponent of getting the RF layout clean before > anything > else. Directional signals sound like a fantastic idea, until you realize > that > the stations you are talking to are not using directional antennas, then > the > value drops significantly (under these conditions, directional antennas > create > more hidden transmitters) > > When I setup conference wifi, I take advantage of the fact that some walls > block > the wifi signals, so I can put the APs closer to the walls that block them > without worrying about what's on the other side. I also place them on the > ground > (under the chairs) as the bodies of the attendees absorb the signal and > let me > use more APs in a room than I could get away with otherwise. I also stick > to the > standard 10MHz channels, as that lets me re-use a channel with more > separation > between APs using the same channel > > And yes, I agree that it makes no sense to run an AP at a higher power > level > than the stations talking to it, so I turn the power way down. > > I haven't knowingly run into the problem you describe of clients > enumerating all > available APs, but I may not have setup a high enough density of APs to > run into > the problem, can you give more info on that? > > > There is no reason to send energy more than 29' as that's the distance > per > > fire code that a human has to be from a working smoke detector. and in > many > > cities, one can't sell a house without a hard-wired, battery backed up, > and > > inter connected smoke detectors. > > As someone who has been looking at building a house, it's not that simple. > Hard > wired smoke detectors are only needed in some rooms, not in all, and only > if the > house is above a minimum size. Then you need different amounts of power to > get > through walls depending on how they are built. > > When I setup wifi in a conference center exibit hall that's 25,000 sq ft, > I > don't believe that there are 80 smoke detectors in that one room (not to > mention > the fact that the cealing is more than 29' away, even if I'm standing > directly > under it) > > Then there's the fact that not everything is inside. > > David Lang > -- This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of it. --000000000000304f3f06002ca6b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That you can build these networks to operate well says mo= re about you than the guys supplying parts & equipment. Impressive real= world knowledge for sure.

Bob=

On Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 4:34 PM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
First off, I am a Huge proponent of getting the RF layout clean before a= nything
else. Directional signals sound like a fantastic idea, until you realize th= at
the stations you are talking to are not using directional antennas, then th= e
value drops significantly (under these conditions, directional antennas cre= ate
more hidden transmitters)

When I setup conference wifi, I take advantage of the fact that some walls = block
the wifi signals, so I can put the APs closer to the walls that block them =
without worrying about what's on the other side. I also place them on t= he ground
(under the chairs) as the bodies of the attendees absorb the signal and let= me
use more APs in a room than I could get away with otherwise. I also stick t= o the
standard 10MHz channels, as that lets me re-use a channel with more separat= ion
between APs using the same channel

And yes, I agree that it makes no sense to run an AP at a higher power leve= l
than the stations talking to it, so I turn the power way down.

I haven't knowingly run into the problem you describe of clients enumer= ating all
available APs, but I may not have setup a high enough density of APs to run= into
the problem, can you give more info on that?

> There is no reason to send energy more than 29' as that's the = distance per
> fire code that a human has to be from a working smoke detector. and in= many
> cities, one can't sell a house without a hard-wired, battery backe= d up, and
> inter connected smoke detectors.

As someone who has been looking at building a house, it's not that simp= le. Hard
wired smoke detectors are only needed in some rooms, not in all, and only i= f the
house is above a minimum size. Then you need different amounts of power to = get
through walls depending on how they are built.

When I setup wifi in a conference center exibit hall that's 25,000 sq f= t, I
don't believe that there are 80 smoke detectors in that one room (not t= o mention
the fact that the cealing is more than 29' away, even if I'm standi= ng directly
under it)

Then there's the fact that not everything is inside.

David Lang

This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it. --000000000000304f3f06002ca6b7-- --00000000000036d46f06002ca6b5 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIQagYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIQWzCCEFcCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg gg3BMIIFDTCCA/WgAwIBAgIQeEqpED+lv77edQixNJMdADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADBMMSAwHgYD VQQLExdHbG9iYWxTaWduIFJvb3QgQ0EgLSBSMzETMBEGA1UEChMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjETMBEGA1UE AxMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjAeFw0yMDA5MTYwMDAwMDBaFw0yODA5MTYwMDAwMDBaMFsxCzAJBgNVBAYT AkJFMRkwFwYDVQQKExBHbG9iYWxTaWduIG52LXNhMTEwLwYDVQQDEyhHbG9iYWxTaWduIEdDQyBS MyBQZXJzb25hbFNpZ24gMiBDQSAyMDIwMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA vbCmXCcsbZ/a0fRIQMBxp4gJnnyeneFYpEtNydrZZ+GeKSMdHiDgXD1UnRSIudKo+moQ6YlCOu4t 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