From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ot1-x329.google.com (mail-ot1-x329.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::329]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 205733B29D for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:01:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x329.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-70938328a0aso1474317a34.1 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2024 10:01:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; t=1722272509; x=1722877309; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=617OAPRJVkfZm8282+Y7wSUEz+Li2+/Z8M74wvsgp20=; b=a1bDhJ28aDYl58qZpjvAKRQV3YXISM1A8VMKkInj5glBTE8Kit7pZTL49XZEZodLzy SupegHTtez6JM+ZlTm30omjW71GZy56I1i6IY1ykJgoYT4baVgWkJLFpAjBdMVxc0uZx +uFmaLkbrwlAc3sb37sSakw5byWPE1F87nUFY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1722272509; x=1722877309; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=617OAPRJVkfZm8282+Y7wSUEz+Li2+/Z8M74wvsgp20=; b=VVqSrT5GW86Ijb6T0Y88BIYXPRWwiU4eDYQ6facoxXJC8PQoEOSRcdC5grZLyLTqug x3VrgSQUNKTcRpbsENdJIvWtUsUlD04uCf/M43Dgf/Rras/w8gdrgnwIzAg7fGHBglZE 8Buobo3EyMLOD0ddcgOtNw7rSIWArPdBwcABgmuoizzYfpRoBnP1mpNtHExTvp2AL+BM NDymuAm0kC0j3s7/9GRpFYpKkY/ZJeTH98t27rTUhcIPSJniXsNElhjjSwTgR5mIgenE ZXQi1x0/E4gLWCqRoI+3OhtzeTbpVlGZvVFFXBHCdQOEv8+n9HuiYb0IEQymKoCRvHW5 lv8w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx+F1E4HBfLnWt0WzH2Wif6ySt3NFB5Pw1qH/s2GtAbmvW1F8a7 cHnJ/X2ZsNY9HY+mGjtw0R53KtM77OmdVLdGVH1b8yKO/OUQHVUAsAZBl20mPPkWovk6ZWfZis3 lApgQp2MzAbTdgRYMWeX31elD0UquXbs2YOtVC1MCSJ0bcQXruB8yyZ0ME+1sPf0a7ZthMGKW+a Yl/761Vb2CdXmRWRkxoMUBnNt5j9TbD5GUOuOh8zNfS9TO6CE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGLqwwSmWhm/9B+guX/4z8TIUN/MMcAYc3cRz+Kj/TNqqht7qbQdDWzk2eB7LfbbZ4+HNbsUXlV1j4bYua9yig= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:4708:b0:709:4065:63e6 with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-70940c156b4mr10719110a34.12.1722272509044; Mon, 29 Jul 2024 10:01:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <25576C4C-91D3-4050-82C8-49D1A6C417D8@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <25576C4C-91D3-4050-82C8-49D1A6C417D8@gmail.com> From: Bob McMahon Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 10:01:37 -0700 Message-ID: To: Rich Brown Cc: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="00000000000022cd89061e65d16b" Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] sophgo risc-v wifi6 chip X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 17:01:50 -0000 --00000000000022cd89061e65d16b Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001bd8aa061e65d117" --0000000000001bd8aa061e65d117 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable yes, and it could be made in a pluggable form similar to the SFP. The waveguides and the antenna are "one and done" for a building, can be put behind walls, 40-80 year lifetime, etc. The part that is changing and gets deprecated every few years by large amounts of invested NRE is the Wi-Fi chips themselves. The thing that fails are lasers or optics (that's part of the reason optics are pluggable in data centers.) So incorporating Wi-Fi analog & digital and the optics (and optics DSP, if needed) on the same pluggable, low power, part is a very good form factor. The upgrade cycle is about every 2 years, for those that want the newer 802.11 features as that standard continues to evolve. Also, if pacing/ECN actually works at scale then the Wi-Fi chip is further simplified, doing L4S marking. The packet stuff can be done in a Fi-Wi concentrator that is 802.3 frame aware or at the host CCAs and the Wi-Fi chip need worry about packets (which are an artifact.) Just be a very good pacer that marks in a way that Wi-Fi receives 802.11 transmits for a local optimum, e.g. correlated with the MAC access (EDCA) and the aggregation and the MCS and possibly bulk vs interactive. Bob On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 5:03=E2=80=AFAM Rich Brown via Make-wifi-fast < make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > On Jul 28, 2024, at 12:00 PM, make-wifi-fast-request@lists.bufferbloat.ne= t > wrote: > > Here, the solutions need to be in full transistors > (and very low power and very secure.) ... Wi-Fi doesn't need to be > managed by a complex workstation and 30+ years of software bloat. > > > If I understand the argument, it's that we should have a pared-down Wi-Fi > chip that does exactly one thing, and does it well. It should implement a= ll > the best practices (TXQs, ATF, AQL, etc.) to make it (more) secure, deliv= er > the best performance (speed & latency). > > The fact that the algorithms are permanently welded into the silicon > doesn't really matter: in practice, "no one ever updates their Wi-Fi > drivers" in the bazillions of off-the-shelf routers on the market. They > might as well have a good implementation. > > Do I have that right? Thanks. > > Rich > _______________________________________________ > Make-wifi-fast mailing list > Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast --=20 This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted= =20 with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for=20 the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain= =20 information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy= =20 laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are=20 not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the=20 e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of= =20 this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,= =20 please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and= =20 destroy any printed copy of it. --0000000000001bd8aa061e65d117 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
yes, and it could be made in a pluggable form similar to t= he SFP. The waveguides and the antenna are "one and done" for a b= uilding, can be put behind walls, 40-80 year lifetime, etc. The part that i= s changing and gets=C2=A0deprecated every few years by large amounts of inv= ested NRE is the Wi-Fi chips=C2=A0themselves. The thing that fails are lase= rs or optics (that's part of the reason optics are pluggable in data ce= nters.) So incorporating Wi-Fi analog & digital and the optics (and opt= ics DSP, if needed) on the same pluggable, low power, part is a very good f= orm factor. The upgrade cycle is about every 2 years, for those that want t= he newer 802.11 features as that standard continues to evolve.

Also,= if pacing/ECN actually works at scale then the Wi-Fi chip is further simpl= ified, doing L4S marking. The packet=C2=A0stuff can be done in a Fi-Wi conc= entrator that is 802.3 frame aware or at the host CCAs and the Wi-Fi chip n= eed worry=C2=A0about packets (which are an artifact.)=C2=A0 Just be a very = good pacer that marks in a way that Wi-Fi receives=C2=A0802.11 transmits fo= r a local optimum, e.g. correlated with the MAC access (EDCA) and the aggre= gation and the MCS and possibly bulk vs interactive.

Bob

On Mon, Jul = 29, 2024 at 5:03=E2=80=AFAM Rich Brown via Make-wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat= .net> wrote:


On Jul 28, 2024, at 12:00 PM, make-wifi-fast-request@= lists.bufferbloat.net wrote:

Here, the solutions need to be in full transistors<= br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-var= iant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex= t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-d= ecoration:none">(and very low = power and very secure.) ...=C2=A0Wi-Fi doesn't need to be
managed by a complex workstation and 30+ = years of software bloat.

If I under= stand the argument, it's that we should have a pared-down Wi-Fi chip th= at does exactly one thing, and does it well. It should implement all the be= st practices (TXQs, ATF, AQL, etc.) to make it (more) secure, deliver the b= est performance (speed & latency).=C2=A0

The f= act that the algorithms are permanently welded into the silicon doesn't= really matter: in practice, "no one ever updates their Wi-Fi drivers&= quot; in the bazillions of off-the-shelf routers on the market. They might = as well have a good implementation.

Do I have that= right? Thanks.

Rich
__________________= _____________________________
Make-wifi-fast mailing list
M= ake-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wif= i-fast

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