From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oi1-x233.google.com (mail-oi1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD4923B2A4 for ; Fri, 29 May 2020 13:50:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x233.google.com with SMTP id d191so3292549oib.12 for ; Fri, 29 May 2020 10:50:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=3JHDmJOUKB9LMEKWUHet0+84fwnMZJnwG2QXE32R81g=; b=NKlSafQJhcLBoGn55vJLCtaOY/6fapvHTyrOExdh0IWCjvtu0hd788u5lXBnXAFYzz d07xVLCcjSG30vL+a8oMNuyUVbg2Y5S4QsSL79eg5XITSa0ZvL95eyDgjV0ZDqt2Uzad SWtlzfisJ+YU/joWa6Ct7UorqTskRdNH+rgq1b/VgUgM+PnsxfKsI8KMPs8PP6wmln07 OXYmlX86O2PEIAcYipBOX1RUPWeZpwReo7CWo3Lc60ut9Uh167fbrjJSmQ4jO6YXM/38 lFOutBS4KOskobp04/4IV+TcahB+wC0P5YLEvM4Isl2FlU4+RbSgllMcIcMvTGIN5t2l v66Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=3JHDmJOUKB9LMEKWUHet0+84fwnMZJnwG2QXE32R81g=; b=i+dbiQeIC0HIzRDY2OniwoOQ6r8wA79BoZkWlzeed8uArUOEk2jKCPUUj9rxzmaN6n /HjA4AJw1A6pzCn+LWJyMDJQtMsj54WxTJPu/KKZ3SMhJzQrGTEHhxt3BytNcMUnYPqf CDK2KomRr5/cJFgOXn7aWGROBZaJyzjTf1yq9JP0rIarBkWNhdKVcI9UvgAqyjwqZZqX VC9D+/NdAdl7aZmJ8ZiT+Hx+KjUKPFH0FHhCVwduFD00g8xap0W7o62YVdZFH3oeRHGr QLe8YFKmgWAHnJk0wuD/KD7BA4LvazC+3+YoxIBxRUY1NoHCr6jqwli4+EzRe2aaxxst uIeQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53083pSZ39dgAZ2YTiV0nMB5tviNQs6LAgssrCmZOO9w6jUBkJYY 13rsT2VOY+qxhVCSQpdm6oCe9V10nfCsZkx8p1YjcQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJweLJp2g+1TUCJixzgCGMp0DCQLEyNQ8ARRqLejoSdlZqlCw5hccfEZVzBcE0Fwx6fLl6yan/QWM6T0GNPu+uc= X-Received: by 2002:aca:d09:: with SMTP id 9mr6557990oin.94.1590774630604; Fri, 29 May 2020 10:50:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Jon Pike Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 10:50:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c6651905a6cd1429" Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] Subject: R7800 & openwrt and smallnetbuilder X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 17:50:31 -0000 --000000000000c6651905a6cd1429 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmmm... wonder what Jim Salter's schedule book looks like? ;-) I was also hoping for a recent evaluation of the recent developments... Heck, I've been waiting for a retake on Jim's articles on rolling your own router on Ars Technia, using OpenWrt and it performed admirably, but I think it was before v16! Probably more than time for a re evaluation, with newer Cake and etc... as well as evaluating the make-wifi-fast stuff on the AP side of things... Whaddya think Tim? Is Jim burnt out on routers and wifi, or am I on to something? ;-) On Thu, May 28, 2020, 9:00 AM wrote: > Send Make-wifi-fast mailing list submissions to > make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > make-wifi-fast-request@lists.bufferbloat.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > make-wifi-fast-owner@lists.bufferbloat.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Make-wifi-fast digest..." > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: REPOSTED: SmallNetBuilder Article: Does OFDMA really > work? Part 2 (Bob McMahon) > 2. Re: REPOSTED: SmallNetBuilder Article: Does OFDMA really > work? Part 2 (Tim Higgins) > 3. R7800 & openwrt and smallnetbuilder (Dave Taht) > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Bob McMahon > To: Tim Higgins > Cc: Make-Wifi-fast > Bcc: > Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 10:16:23 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] REPOSTED: SmallNetBuilder Article: Does > OFDMA really work? Part 2 > I would make a small packet run too. For iperf2 use -l 40 and -b 20000pps > and vary the pps number. I would hope that OFDMA would increase this. > > Also, don't forget about jitter - the derivative of latency. Some > protocols care more about jitter than they do latency. > > I'd look into measuring the actual latency and jitter of the traffic vs > using a ping as a proxy. This will be supported in iperf 2.0.14 using the > write (server) side clock and --write-ack. Better though is to synchroni= ze > the clocks and use one way trip times. While I like to synchronize the > realtime clocks to the GPS atomic clock as the reference, using PTP and > synchronizing to a common reference of any PC oscillator may be good > enough. PTP stats will give you errors and corrections and per the > corrections one can get an idea of the error. > > Thanks for posting. I really don't think OFDMA is going to affect such > large latencies in a noticeable manner. I think it will be the ultra low > latencies or near zero queuing that will matter. For data center switche= s > this is driven mostly by high frequency traders. For WiFi it's going to b= e > newer games with VR/AR. Those latencies are going to need to be very low > compared to today's use cases. > > my $0.02, > > Bob > > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:37 AM Tim Higgins > wrote: > >> Tests have been redone and article is back up. >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D >> Hi All, >> >> This article uses the benchmark test described in Part 1 to test 6 Wi-Fi >> consumer routers. Results are not impressive. >> >> https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-features/33223-does-of= dma-really-work-part-2 >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> Tim >> _______________________________________________ >> Make-wifi-fast mailing list >> Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Tim Higgins > To: Bob McMahon > Cc: Make-Wifi-fast > Bcc: > Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 10:22:04 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] REPOSTED: SmallNetBuilder Article: Does > OFDMA really work? Part 2 > Hi Bob, > > Thanks for the suggestions. The iper2 suggests are for UDP, correct? > > As I said in the article, I'm done hunting this snark for now. Maybe > others will take up the challenge. > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Tim > On 5/27/2020 1:16 PM, Bob McMahon wrote: > > I would make a small packet run too. For iperf2 use -l 40 and -b 20000pps > and vary the pps number. I would hope that OFDMA would increase this. > > Also, don't forget about jitter - the derivative of latency. Some > protocols care more about jitter than they do latency. > > I'd look into measuring the actual latency and jitter of the traffic vs > using a ping as a proxy. This will be supported in iperf 2.0.14 using the > write (server) side clock and --write-ack. Better though is to synchroni= ze > the clocks and use one way trip times. While I like to synchronize the > realtime clocks to the GPS atomic clock as the reference, using PTP and > synchronizing to a common reference of any PC oscillator may be good > enough. PTP stats will give you errors and corrections and per the > corrections one can get an idea of the error. > > Thanks for posting. I really don't think OFDMA is going to affect such > large latencies in a noticeable manner. I think it will be the ultra low > latencies or near zero queuing that will matter. For data center switche= s > this is driven mostly by high frequency traders. For WiFi it's going to b= e > newer games with VR/AR. Those latencies are going to need to be very low > compared to today's use cases. > > my $0.02, > > Bob > > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:37 AM Tim Higgins > wrote: > >> Tests have been redone and article is back up. >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D >> Hi All, >> >> This article uses the benchmark test described in Part 1 to test 6 Wi-Fi >> consumer routers. Results are not impressive. >> >> https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-features/33223-does-of= dma-really-work-part-2 >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> Tim >> _______________________________________________ >> Make-wifi-fast mailing list >> Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dave Taht > To: Make-Wifi-fast > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 08:28:05 -0700 > Subject: [Make-wifi-fast] R7800 & openwrt and smallnetbuilder > I see that the R7800 is tim's goto router. I have one in a box... > somewhere... > > A benchmark between the stock R7800 firmware and openwrt 19.03 on it > would be nice to have. So far as I know > most of the offloads are in 19.03. However, the work ongoing on the > ath10k is pretty relevant, so A to B to C > would be a good shower of progress. > > I figure tim is burned out totally on benchmarking wifi routers and is > off restoring his karma by planting a garden or hopefully something > relaxing like that(?), but I did manage to get most of my lab > reassembled over the past few weeks. > > > -- > "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public > relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman > > dave@taht.net CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729 > > _______________________________________________ > Make-wifi-fast mailing list > Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast --000000000000c6651905a6cd1429 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hmmm...=C2=A0 wonder what Jim Salter's schedule book = looks like?=C2=A0 ;-)

I was al= so hoping for a recent evaluation of the recent developments...=C2=A0 Heck,= I've been waiting for a retake on Jim's articles on rolling your o= wn router on Ars Technia,=C2=A0 using OpenWrt and it performed admirably, b= ut I think it was before v16!=C2=A0 Probably more than time for a re evalua= tion, with newer Cake and etc...=C2=A0 as well as evaluating the make-wifi-= fast stuff on the AP side of things...

Whaddya think Tim?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Is Jim burnt out on routers a= nd wifi, or am I on to something?=C2=A0 ;-)

On Thu, May 28, 2020, 9:00= AM <ma= ke-wifi-fast-request@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Send Make-wifi-fast mailing list submissions to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbl= oat.net

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://= lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 make-wifi-fast-reques= t@lists.bufferbloat.net

You can reach the person managing the list at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 make-wifi-fast-owner@li= sts.bufferbloat.net

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Make-wifi-fast digest..."
Today's Topics:

=C2=A0 =C2=A01. Re: REPOSTED: SmallNetBuilder Article: Does OFDMA really =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 work? Part 2 (Bob McMahon)
=C2=A0 =C2=A02. Re: REPOSTED: SmallNetBuilder Article: Does OFDMA really =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 work? Part 2 (Tim Higgins)
=C2=A0 =C2=A03. R7800 & openwrt and smallnetbuilder (Dave Taht)



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Bob McMah= on <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com>
To:=C2=A0Tim Higgins <<= a href=3D"mailto:tim@smallnetbuilder.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferr= er">tim@smallnetbuilder.com>
Cc:=C2=A0Make-Wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Bcc:=C2=A0
Da= te:=C2=A0Wed, 27 May 2020 10:16:23 -0700
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Make-wifi-fa= st] REPOSTED: SmallNetBuilder Article: Does OFDMA really work? Part 2
I would make a small packet run too. For iperf2 use -l 40 an= d -b 20000pps and vary the pps number. I would hope that OFDMA would increa= se this.=C2=A0

Also, don't forget=C2=A0about jitter - the deriv= ative of latency. Some protocols care more about jitter=C2=A0than they do l= atency.

I'd look into measuring the actual=C2=A0latency and jit= ter of the traffic vs using a ping as a proxy. This will be supported in ip= erf 2.0.14 using=C2=A0the write (server) side clock and --write-ack.=C2=A0 = Better though is to synchronize the clocks and use one way trip times. Whil= e I like to synchronize the realtime=C2=A0clocks to the GPS atomic clock as= the reference, using PTP and synchronizing=C2=A0to a common reference of a= ny PC oscillator may be good enough. PTP stats will give you errors and cor= rections and per the corrections one can get an idea of the error.

T= hanks=C2=A0for posting. I really don't think OFDMA is going to affect s= uch large latencies in=C2=A0a noticeable manner. I think it will be the ult= ra low latencies or near zero queuing that will matter.=C2=A0 For data cent= er switches this is driven mostly by high frequency traders. For WiFi it= 9;s going to be newer games with VR/AR. Those latencies are going to need t= o be very low compared to today's use cases.

my $0.02,

Bo= b

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:37 AM Tim Higgins <tim@smallnetbuilder.c= om> wrote:
Tests have bee= n redone and article is back up.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D
Hi All,

This article uses the benchmark test described in Part 1 to test 6 Wi-Fi consumer routers. Results are not impressive.
= https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-features/33223-does-ofdma= -really-work-part-2

=20
=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Tim
_______________________________________________
Make-wifi-fast mailing list
Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listin= fo/make-wifi-fast


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Tim Higgi= ns <tim@smallnetbuilder.com>
To:=C2=A0Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com>
Cc:=C2=A0Make-Wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Bcc:=C2=A0
Da= te:=C2=A0Thu, 28 May 2020 10:22:04 -0400
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Make-wifi-fa= st] REPOSTED: SmallNetBuilder Article: Does OFDMA really work? Part 2
=20 =20 =20
Hi Bob,

Thanks for the suggestions. The iper2 suggests are for UDP, correct?

As I said in the article, I'm done hunting this snark for now. Maybe others will take up the challenge.
=20
=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Tim
On 5/27/2020 1:16 PM, Bob McMahon wrote:
=20
I would make a small packet run too. For iperf2 use -l 40 and -b 20000pps and vary the pps number. I would hope that OFDMA would increase this.=C2=A0

Also, don't forget=C2=A0about jitter - the derivative of latenc= y. Some protocols care more about jitter=C2=A0than they do latency.
I'd look into measuring the actual=C2=A0latency and jitter of t= he traffic vs using a ping as a proxy. This will be supported in iperf 2.0.14 using=C2=A0the write (server) side clock and --write-ack.=C2=A0 Better though is to synchronize the clocks and u= se one way trip times. While I like to synchronize the realtime=C2=A0clocks to the GPS atomic clock as the reference, usin= g PTP and synchronizing=C2=A0to a common reference of any PC oscillat= or may be good enough. PTP stats will give you errors and corrections and per the corrections one can get an idea of the error.

Thanks=C2=A0for posting. I really don't think OFDMA is going to affect such large latencies in=C2=A0a noticeable manner. I think it will be the ultra low latencies or near zero queuing that will matter.=C2=A0 For data center switches this is driven mostly by hig= h frequency traders. For WiFi it's going to be newer games with VR/AR. Those latencies are going to need to be very low compared to today's use cases.

my $0.02,

Bob

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:37 AM Tim Higgins <tim@smallnetbuilder.com> wrote:
Te= sts have been redone and article is back up.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Hi All,

This article uses the benchmark test described in Part 1 to test 6 Wi-Fi consumer routers. Results are not impressive.
https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-features/33223-do= es-ofdma-really-work-part-2

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Tim
_______________________________________________
Make-wifi-fast mailing list
Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.= net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast




---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Dave Taht= <dave.taht@gmail.com>
To:=C2=A0Make-Wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Cc:=C2=A0
Bcc:= =C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Thu, 28 May 2020 08:28:05 -0700
Subject:=C2=A0[Make= -wifi-fast] R7800 & openwrt and smallnetbuilder
I see that the R7800= is tim's goto router. I have one in a box... somewhere...

A benchmark between the stock R7800 firmware and openwrt 19.03=C2=A0 on it<= br> would be nice to have. So far as I know
most of the offloads are in 19.03. However, the work ongoing on the
ath10k is pretty relevant, so A to B to C
would be a good shower of progress.

I figure tim is burned out totally on benchmarking wifi routers and is
off restoring his karma by planting a garden or hopefully something
relaxing like that(?), but I did manage to get most of my lab
reassembled over the past few weeks.


--
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public=
relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman

dave@= taht.net <Dave T=C3=A4ht> CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729<= br>
_______________________________________________
Make-wifi-fast mailing list
Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listin= fo/make-wifi-fast --000000000000c6651905a6cd1429--