From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from salsa.gih.co.uk (salsa.gih.co.uk [IPv6:2a00:19e8:10:5::b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C87C03CB37 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 12:21:02 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gih.com; s=mahalo1; t=1700155260; bh=fJ2mlo4tvoK98Hn/Yp6pU2GlneRX7msg8X8WnpyTxuM=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=Za7eYKZeSX/09TjtsWyLCHyBilfY7QLACK0p+z0+DgYFMvKaJ90ev8jvKqVTXZ/vo +3KkJUC37kMfTq7FDllwKu548LGJC781al6yQAmajCTI8t5hbQxhak6TdFNkFHZOvY 5SlfbBlsMZoj1WlC54H7hh8R9yWIkDC9N6pPfWpI= Received: from [192.168.1.11] (lfbn-nic-1-146-40.w2-15.abo.wanadoo.fr [2.15.229.40]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by salsa.gih.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7D87726C for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 17:21:00 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------unDDNQ8an65yi8uG0aA6u9Qk" Message-ID: <02d9d652-d88c-4991-a933-deda9a19684d@gih.com> Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 18:20:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: en-GB To: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <6318C91C-A664-464E-8A9E-4C2A0FFD9C05@comcast.com> <4154C0D8-EF61-4483-97F9-7CDE82CD803D@gmx.de> <35F467F6DA3F419FA78DA6BBB236030D@SRA6> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond?= Autocrypt: addr=ocl@gih.com; keydata= xjMEXgVLNRYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdA6Qu3mpKqWsuTpCr1NzwkI/sRh0+OymduBYz/OVBzdLvN KE9saXZpZXIgTUogQ3LDqXBpbi1MZWJsb25kIDxvY2xAZ2loLmNvbT7ClgQTFggAPhYhBOHx tgrNGOZNY65d6PPfz68jDk+HBQJeBUs1AhsDBQkJZgGABQsJCAcCBhUKCQgLAgQWAgMBAh4B AheAAAoJEPPfz68jDk+H+YIBAIieh5aRaQ15fJrq30/xbKjxD38Wtb3UeCUD/ISOKZSWAQDQ 6XbeDOTjokjw1Rnops8sBxAfHk3qECs+x32T6ShrA844BF4FSzUSCisGAQQBl1UBBQEBB0A6 4/AnT6+4wNRsDPt0nShif0CcUXKZHZgnaxMm5woXOwMBCAfCfgQYFggAJhYhBOHxtgrNGOZN Y65d6PPfz68jDk+HBQJeBUs1AhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEPPfz68jDk+H+S0A/06l/HPJbUTM/esf nSqIIDbcwpjx1kINtfwXG0JyPl6JAQD5KD8vD0d246TYzxX+rAdnmHgLhWriyAfjViKTInpz DQ== In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 17:21:03 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------unDDNQ8an65yi8uG0aA6u9Qk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello all, I have watched this discussion flourish but don't quite understand the issues with 3G, 4G/LTE and 5G which you are relating here. It seems to me more a problem of the carrier you are using than the technology itself as I have been in plenty of locations in the world with blazingly fast LTE and now 5G. And then, what does this have to do with Network Neutrality? Excuse my confusion but I just cannot put 2 and 2 together. Kindest regards, Olivier On 16/11/2023 18:02, Dick Roy via Nnagain wrote: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*Sebastian Moeller [mailto:moeller0@gmx.de] > *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2023 3:02 AM > *To:* Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects > heard this time!; Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain; Dick Roy > *Subject:* Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble > > Update, mmmh, > > Virginia is apparently not only for 'lovers' but also for LTE, along > the trip with the silver line to Dulles, my phone reported 4G, aka > LTE, while in downtown DC EDGE-only it was... > > */[RR] You are really lucky!  It could have said “5G” in which case > you’d have been down to 19kbps 1980 modem rates! /**/JJ/**//* > > > > Regards >          Sebsstian > > On 14 November 2023 13:06:39 CET, Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain > wrote: > > Hi Richard, > > On Nov 13, 2023, at 16:08, Dick Roy via Nnagain > wrote: -----Original > Message----- From: Nnagain > [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of > Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain Sent: Monday, November 13, 2023 > 6:15 AM To: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the > technical aspects heard this time! Cc: Sebastian Moeller > Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom > bubble Hi Jason, > > On Nov 13, 2023, at 08:54, Livingood, Jason via Nnagain > wrote: > > Would love to spend some time thinking together about > what a smart manufacturing system would look like in > terms of connectivity, latency, compute availability, > anything that occurs to you. I know a guy who does > devops for factories, and he has amazing stories -- > might be good to make that connection as well. > > One of the L4S (low latency, low loss, scalable > throughput) demos that Nokia did at a recent IETF > hackathon showed a simulated 5G access network to do low > latency remote control of cranes in an industrial port > facility. It seemed like one of their points was that you > could remotely operate cargo container movements with the > crane via a remote workforce over a low delay network > connection - even with fairly limited bandwidth (they’d > adjust the throughput down to just a few hundred kbps). > While they did not say much more, I could envision a port > operator being able to gain more efficiency by enabling a > skilled operator to control cranes at several ports around > the world on an as-needed basis (vs. being based in 1 port > and having some downtime or low utilization of their > skills/training), even from the comfort of home. > >       I would stop doing business with such ports... there > clearly are accidents (or sabotage/jamming) just waiting to > happen using wireless connections for such use-cases... Yes, I > understand that that is what Nokia sells, so everything looks > like a nail to them, but really "caveat emptor", just because > something can be done does not mean it should be done as > well... Regards       Sebastian P.S.: Currently in the US for > a conference, getting reminded how shitty GSM/LTE can be, heck > the conference WiFi (with 25K attendees) is more responsive > than GSM... I am sure 5G might be better, but my phone is LTE > only... [RR] Welcome to the “club”!  We in the US have been > dealing with this for over 30 years … why you ask???? ... > answer … CDMA and the IPR behind it!  It was and still is “all > about the money!”. My phone has 5G and when download rates > plummet to the floor, all I have to do is look at the top of > the display, and lo and behold … I’m on 5G!!! If you believe > 5G is going to be better, I have a bridge for you that “is > going to be soooo much better” JJJ > >       All good explanations for what I see, yet this is happening > in the capital... (but truth be told, when I bought this phone I > did not pay much attention to which bands it was suited for, it is > not impossible that it at least partly my phone's fault that I am > connecting with EDGE speeds, quite the throw-back to the 2000s ;) > but back then EDGE was indeed cutting edge). About that bridge, I > hope this is in NY city? Regards       Sebastian > > RR > > Jason > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Nnagain mailing list Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Nnagain mailing list Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Nnagain mailing list Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Nnagain mailing list Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain -- Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html --------------unDDNQ8an65yi8uG0aA6u9Qk Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello all,

I have watched this discussion flourish but don't quite understand the issues with 3G, 4G/LTE and 5G which you are relating here.
It seems to me more a problem of the carrier you are using than the technology itself as I have been in plenty of locations in the world with blazingly fast LTE and now 5G.
And then, what does this have to do with Network Neutrality? Excuse my confusion but I just cannot put 2 and 2 together.
Kindest regards,

Olivier

On 16/11/2023 18:02, Dick Roy via Nnagain wrote:

 

 

From: Sebastian Moeller [mailto:moeller0@gmx.de]
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2023 3:02 AM
To: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects heard this time!; Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain; Dick Roy
Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble

 

Update, mmmh,

Virginia is apparently not only for 'lovers' but also for LTE, along the trip with the silver line to Dulles, my phone reported 4G, aka LTE, while in downtown DC EDGE-only it was...

[RR] You are really lucky!  It could have said “5G” in which case you’d have been down to 19kbps 1980 modem rates! JJ



Regards
         Sebsstian

 

On 14 November 2023 13:06:39 CET, Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

Hi Richard,




On Nov 13, 2023, at 16:08, Dick Roy via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:



 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain

Sent: Monday, November 13, 2023 6:15 AM

To: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects heard this time!

Cc: Sebastian Moeller

Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble

 

Hi Jason,

 

 
On Nov 13, 2023, at 08:54, Livingood, Jason via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Would love to spend some time thinking together about what a smart manufacturing system would look like in terms of connectivity, latency, compute availability, anything that occurs to you. I know a guy who does devops for factories, and he has amazing stories -- might be good to make that connection as well. 
 

One of the L4S (low latency, low loss, scalable throughput) demos that Nokia did at a recent IETF hackathon showed a simulated 5G access network to do low latency remote control of cranes in an industrial port facility. It seemed like one of their points was that you could remotely operate cargo container movements with the crane via a remote workforce over a low delay network connection - even with fairly limited bandwidth (they’d adjust the throughput down to just a few hundred kbps).

 

While they did not say much more, I could envision a port operator being able to gain more efficiency by enabling a skilled operator to control cranes at several ports around the world on an as-needed basis (vs. being based in 1 port and having some downtime or low utilization of their skills/training), even from the comfort of home.
 

 

      I would stop doing business with such ports... there clearly are accidents (or sabotage/jamming) just waiting to happen using wireless connections for such use-cases... Yes, I understand that that is what Nokia sells, so everything looks like a nail to them, but really "caveat emptor", just because something can be done does not mean it should be done as well... 

 

Regards

      Sebastian

 

P.S.: Currently in the US for a conference, getting reminded how shitty GSM/LTE can be, heck the conference WiFi (with 25K attendees) is more responsive than GSM... I am sure 5G might be better, but my phone is LTE only...

[RR] Welcome to the “club”!  We in the US have been dealing with this for over 30 years … why you ask???? ... answer … CDMA and the IPR behind it!  It was and still is “all about the money!”. My phone has 5G and when download rates plummet to the floor, all I have to do is look at the top of the display, and lo and behold … I’m on 5G!!! If you believe 5G is going to be better, I have a bridge for you that “is going to be soooo much better” JJJ


      All good explanations for what I see, yet this is happening in the capital... (but truth be told, when I bought this phone I did not pay much attention to which bands it was suited for, it is not impossible that it at least partly my phone's fault that I am connecting with EDGE speeds, quite the throw-back to the 2000s ;) but back then EDGE was indeed cutting edge). 

About that bridge, I hope this is in NY city?







Regards

      Sebastian




 

RR

 

 

 

 

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.


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-- 
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD
http://www.gih.com/ocl.html
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