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([80.187.113.146]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1ML9uK-1qglrV10x0-00IChd; Tue, 31 Oct 2023 19:00:35 +0100 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 19:00:31 +0100 From: Sebastian Moeller To: Dave Taht , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=B4s_mak?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?e_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <2822930F-C30B-4557-B248-78D78DF6F861@gmx.de> Message-ID: <07ABD29C-004F-4732-9390-59DF70ED8388@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=----4EQXB7K5WQ2QGPTYL2A1XTZGDOND56 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:zN5adGjFrnxJJy7Po0XUB4eTwRJy/AYt7849mmRK3/WBqRWH3TZ oiW8Q01I6ylHr93KYP7ojQv9lOzBzYGHIFdcsNl+mx6o/Ct+1OGI0fupLs+L3qh1KtIhjjT pllcTdyk8o5mY+GrShP9QgNlKlyGYfTlrsLDldV6Lmp8aFcxjo9YyxkC3DRL+ccIM8UTzFy 3ZjRa4RjBpNgBtw6hDvIg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:fHhHFU9iGR0=;VGIQm0XImvOJ1s+kGSPOP+TcrPS koApaGHBUBww6mfqZT0fVmAhf36Di0C8Eb9KDYoErRIaO+FxC/DNwWjIMpnjUyctoz7+pkxLt keCSB12FmpWuw2hDkPelg8DjX/jN/tB7b8VADYJnsQhA4Mh025/QEeTk8+w0R+4+zCFX0QP78 DLEtGnzO70w9wjR6uqcmwnPMBZgbUDD5HdAnfJzIaAVjmxpdySb/FXZ5hb7EeT66dRIRUZvkL z0M1KBfqEG+X+PdggT3yE4oNHAlqJ2ntFDJeH11eVrikBkG2KN/TVNxmzQGnm4ikr3u7Bp0Yp pcHBC3O0AUZypGvFnDL1GHJjkH69J9SNoNd1NcktNOeTzIVvKJjwehewvZSa3SUq7hzI10oNc nsrn+Ak04rQj62B1zoNNWfIbKzQn2mcgBdBpqIvd953ILXpUfZh2cxDwlC0HV3cp3imXs2ER4 n+Bi1/MvDvr1QYEs2ZVcGiYgOLQdGuHoKhwZVRSxz1MHYElK2H+dX8kBFhX3667dbQU1cQ7BR SgCUqhB9aVp0bcGNDIGQrY5TrkfBbL7Pu18fxoD3J3ilLjYwStMkH8dO5MY7XcKonT8QoTR8T Aul1NEP6pYyOiCsaiRAWxAOp3kCLZ8N2pYU8g1GWFBm+DC+Lo7t+b0m++eRwXq4GVwWHo+Nw+ hbKUydiEe+0sVvcdT/VgQlbi+ZIkRWsSqrploAGatVrA/hMgO8raQmRyCcTnJsYU3v5fdvRHU arGtapAQlETCl9f8/wyaa2kiDyDUbRLQfRkDmwoQBNePORB9TqvRaEqokQbPKhaICLS4Uz3HH 0jLK8eMdXVmEyAEEfZUxE6OfGG7/Sc8SWeadLy/O49j9jBwjwCz7RIhRQTpQfV+xQzU2WalPc YN9gxP6fKxOlKcddTMaKcGicWy4j3Js6P1paE+eCitKq9NnCr3eYUl/B/gmBe+Nm7OLKbupmu bMldaWiUAc03po7z4DrnprstI8Y= Subject: Re: [NNagain] NN review in the UK X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 18:00:37 -0000 ------4EQXB7K5WQ2QGPTYL2A1XTZGDOND56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dave, This morphing is IMHO related to Brexit and an attempt to see how/if regul= atory divergence from continental Europe can be converted into an economic = advantage=2E =20 The ofcom positions seem not really all that far from european regulations= on the fact level, while on a rhetorical level it tries to look business f= riendly=2E=2E=2E (without changes in the UK law they hardly can do more)=2E My point is the European NN regulations were never all that strict and bus= iness stifling as some here seem to presume=2E On 31 October 2023 18:37:16 CET, Dave Taht wrote= : >I am still looking for the history of this morphing=2E=2E=2E > >https://decoded=2Elegal/blog/2023/10/ofcoms-new-guidance-on-open-internet= --net-neutrality-including-zero-rating-and-traffic-management/ > >On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 9:33=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht wrote: >> >> This link is working now=2E >> >> https://www=2Eofcom=2Eorg=2Euk/consultations-and-statements/category-1/= net-neutrality-review >> >> I had reached out to multiple folk I knew to fix it=2E It is hugely >> ironic that we have run into multiple examples of both intentional and >> unintentional censorship so far in our quest to find truths about >> network neutrality all around the globe=2E >> >> Annoyed, I set up a server in london, and mirrored the site myself via >> "wget -m" - a command line utility that lets you make complete copies >> of websites shipped as part of most operating systems=2E =2E=2E=2E Back= in the >> day when the open internet meant you can copy a website and read it >> offline, easily=2E=2E=2E >> >> And then I shipped it all to my own laptop (where I can index it >> myself), via another quite common tool, rsync=2E It took a while to do >> that - started the rsync in america, and then finished it at a coffee >> shop in vancouver=2E=2E=2E then I read the 5 pdfs and deleted the thing >> because I needed the disk space=2E >> >> Seeing so many newer folk having missed JPB's observation that the >> internet is a "copying machine" =2E=2E=2E if only more people would poi= nt >> out to those folk these basic tools exist, that cannot be banned, and >> are genuinely useful=2E=2E=2E=2E >> >> OK=2E=2E=2E so=2E=2E=2E >> >> This now globally(? please test) accessible cloudflare instance for >> ofcom is now throwing an error 429 (too many requests) so I no longer >> have that ability to quickly mirror it that I had had only a few days >> ago=2E Is this an improvement? >> >> Anyway, I can finally get towards commenting on the actual text=2E But >> not today=2E I would like to see various statements written about >> network neutrality in 2005, 2010, 2015, because it seems to be the >> definition in the ofcom docs has morphed a lot towards being=2E=2E=2E >> "reasonable", whatever that means=2E >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 3:01=E2=80=AFAM Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain >> wrote: >> > >> > Dear All, >> > >> > I have been pointed at Ofcom's statement on Net neutrality for Octobe= r 2023: >> > >> > https://www=2Eofcom=2Eorg=2Euk/consultations-and-statements/category-= 1/net-neutrality-review >> > >> > Here is the meat of that statement sans the links at the end (the ema= il will be clasified as spam if it contains too many links, I hope the one = above does not trigger it yet): >> > >> > Statement published 26 October 2023 >> > >> > Net neutrality supports the =E2=80=98open internet=E2=80=99, ensuring= that users of the internet (both consumers and those making and distributi= ng content) are in control of what they see and do online =E2=80=93 not the= broadband or mobile providers (otherwise known as internet service provide= rs or ISPs)=2E The net neutrality rules make sure that the traffic carried = across broadband and mobile networks is treated equally and particular cont= ent or services are not prioritised or slowed down in a way that favours so= me over others=2E We want to make sure that as technology evolves and more = of our lives move online, net neutrality continues to support innovation, i= nvestment and growth, by both content providers and ISPs=2E >> > >> > The current net neutrality rules are set out in legislation=2E Any ch= anges to the rules in future would be a matter for Government and Parliamen= t=2E Ofcom is responsible for monitoring and ensuring compliance with the r= ules and providing guidance on how ISPs should follow them=2E In 2021 we st= arted a review of net neutrality=2E >> > >> > Our review has found that, in general, it has worked well and support= ed consumer choice as well as enabling content providers to deliver their c= ontent and services to consumers=2E However, there are specific areas where= we provide more clarity in our guidance to enable ISPs to innovate and man= age their networks more efficiently, to improve consumer outcome=2E >> > >> > =E2=80=A2 ISPs can offer premium quality retail offers: Allow= ing ISPs to provide premium quality retail packages means they can better m= eet some consumers=E2=80=99 needs=2E For example, people who use high quali= ty virtual reality applications may want to buy a premium quality service, = while users who mainly stream and browse the internet can buy a cheaper pac= kage=2E Our updated guidance clarifies that ISPs can offer premium packages= , for example offering low latency, as long as they are sufficiently clear = to customers about what they can expect from the services they buy=2E >> > =E2=80=A2 ISPs can develop new =E2=80=98specialised services= =E2=80=99: New 5G and full fibre networks offer the opportunity for ISPs to= innovate and develop their services=2E Our updated guidance clarifies when= they can provide =E2=80=98specialised services=E2=80=99 to deliver specifi= c content and applications that need to be optimised, which might include r= eal time communications, virtual reality and driverless vehicles=2E >> > =E2=80=A2 ISPs can use traffic management measures to manage = their networks: Traffic management can be used by ISPs on their networks, s= o that a good quality of service is maintained for consumers=2E Our updated= guidance clarifies when and how ISPs can use traffic management, including= the different approaches they can take and how they can distinguish betwee= n different categories of traffic based on their technical requirements=2E >> > =E2=80=A2 Most zero-rating offers will be allowed: Zero-ratin= g is where the data used by certain websites or apps is not counted towards= a customer=E2=80=99s overall data allowance=2E Our updated guidance clarif= ies that we will generally allow these offers, while setting out the limite= d circumstances where we might have concerns=2E >> > >> > >> > I note however, that when I try to access that page today I get a clo= adflare error: >> > Sorry, you have been blocked >> > You are unable to access ofcom=2Esquizedge=2Ecloud >> > >> > Which might indicate that some parts of the network are not acting in= good faith (or I was just unlucky with my current IP address) >> > >> > I also note (as Ofcom does itself) that since Brexit the UK is not bo= und to the EU's regulation 2015/2120 (see https://eur-lex=2Eeuropa=2Eeu/leg= al-content/de/TXT/?uri=3DCELEX%3A32015R2120 )=2E >> > >> > Regards >> > Sebastian >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Nnagain mailing list >> > Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >> > https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain >> >> >> >> -- >> Oct 30: https://netdevconf=2Einfo/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-b= of=2Ehtml >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > > > >--=20 >Oct 30: https://netdevconf=2Einfo/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof= =2Ehtml >Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E ------4EQXB7K5WQ2QGPTYL2A1XTZGDOND56 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dave,

This morphing is= IMHO related to Brexit and an attempt to see how/if regulatory divergence = from continental Europe can be converted into an economic advantage=2E=C2= =A0

The ofcom positions seem not really all that far from european = regulations on the fact level, while on a rhetorical level it tries to look= business friendly=2E=2E=2E (without changes in the UK law they hardly can = do more)=2E

My point is the European NN regulations were never all t= hat strict and business stifling as some here seem to presume=2E



On 31 October 2= 023 18:37:16 CET, Dave Taht <dave=2Etaht@gmail=2Ecom> wrote:
I am still looking for the history=
 of this morphing=2E=2E=2E

https://decoded=2Elegal/blog/2023/10/ofcoms=
-new-guidance-on-open-internet--net-neutrality-including-zero-rating-and-tr=
affic-management/

On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 9:33=E2=80=AFAM Dave T=
aht <dave=2Etaht@gmail=2Ecom> wrote:

 This link is working now=
=2E

 https://www=2Eofcom=2Eorg=2Euk/co=
nsultations-and-statements/category-1/net-neutrality-review

 I h=
ad reached out to multiple folk I knew to fix it=2E It is hugely
 ironic=
 that we have run into multiple examples of both intentional and
 uninte=
ntional censorship so far in our quest to find truths about
 network neu=
trality all around the globe=2E

 Annoyed, I set up a server in londo=
n, and mirrored the site myself via
 "wget -m" - a command line utility =
that lets you make complete copies
 of websites shipped as part of most =
operating systems=2E =2E=2E=2E Back in the
 day when the open internet m=
eant you can copy a website and read it
 offline, easily=2E=2E=2E
 And then I shipped it all to my own laptop (where I can index it
 myse=
lf), via another quite common tool, rsync=2E It took a while to do
 that=
 - started the rsync in america, and then finished it at a coffee
 shop =
in vancouver=2E=2E=2E then I read the 5 pdfs and deleted the thing
 beca=
use I needed the disk space=2E

 Seeing so many newer folk having mis=
sed JPB's observation that the
 internet is a "copying machine" =2E=2E=
=2E if only more people would point
 out to those folk these basic tools=
 exist, that cannot be banned, and
 are genuinely useful=2E=2E=2E=2E
=

 OK=2E=2E=2E so=2E=2E=2E

 This now globally(? please test) acces=
sible cloudflare instance for
 ofcom is now throwing an error 429 (too m=
any requests) so I no longer
 have that ability to quickly mirror it tha=
t I had had only a few days
 ago=2E Is this an improvement?

 Anyw=
ay, I can finally get towards commenting on the actual text=2E But
 not =
today=2E I would like to see various statements written about
 network n=
eutrality in 2005, 2010, 2015, because it seems to be the
 definition in=
 the ofcom docs has morphed a lot towards being=2E=2E=2E
 "reasonable", =
whatever that means=2E



 On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 3:01=E2=80=
=AFAM Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain
 <nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2En=
et> wrote:

 Dear All,

 I have been pointed at Ofcom's statem=
ent on Net neutrality for October 2023:

 https://www=2Eofcom=2Eorg=2Euk/consultations-and-statements/category-1/n=
et-neutrality-review

 Here is the meat of that statement sans th=
e links at the end (the email will be clasified as spam if it contains too =
many links, I hope the one above does not trigger it yet):

 Statemen=
t published 26 October 2023

 Net neutrality supports the =E2=80=98op=
en internet=E2=80=99, ensuring that users of the internet (both consumers a=
nd those making and distributing content) are in control of what they see a=
nd do online =E2=80=93 not the broadband or mobile providers (otherwise kno=
wn as internet service providers or ISPs)=2E The net neutrality rules make =
sure that the traffic carried across broadband and mobile networks is treat=
ed equally and particular content or services are not prioritised or slowed=
 down in a way that favours some over others=2E We want to make sure that a=
s technology evolves and more of our lives move online, net neutrality cont=
inues to support innovation, investment and growth, by both content provide=
rs and ISPs=2E

 The current net neutrality rules are set out in legi=
slation=2E Any changes to the rules in future would be a matter for Governm=
ent and Parliament=2E Ofcom is responsible for monitoring and ensuring comp=
liance with the rules and providing guidance on how ISPs should follow them=
=2E In 2021 we started a review of net neutrality=2E

 Our review has=
 found that, in general, it has worked well and supported consumer choice a=
s well as enabling content providers to deliver their content and services =
to consumers=2E However, there are specific areas where we provide more cla=
rity in our guidance to enable ISPs to innovate and manage their networks m=
ore efficiently, to improve consumer outcome=2E

         =E2=80=A2 I=
SPs can offer premium quality retail offers: Allowing ISPs to provide premi=
um quality retail packages means they can better meet some consumers=E2=80=
=99 needs=2E For example, people who use high quality virtual reality appli=
cations may want to buy a premium quality service, while users who mainly s=
tream and browse the internet can buy a cheaper package=2E Our updated guid=
ance clarifies that ISPs can offer premium packages, for example offering l=
ow latency, as long as they are sufficiently clear to customers about what =
they can expect from the services they buy=2E
         =E2=80=A2 ISPs ca=
n develop new =E2=80=98specialised services=E2=80=99: New 5G and full fibre=
 networks offer the opportunity for ISPs to innovate and develop their serv=
ices=2E Our updated guidance clarifies when they can provide =E2=80=98speci=
alised services=E2=80=99 to deliver specific content and applications that =
need to be optimised, which might include real time communications, virtual=
 reality and driverless vehicles=2E
         =E2=80=A2 ISPs can use traf=
fic management measures to manage their networks: Traffic management can be=
 used by ISPs on their networks, so that a good quality of service is maint=
ained for consumers=2E Our updated guidance clarifies when and how ISPs can=
 use traffic management, including the different approaches they can take a=
nd how they can distinguish between different categories of traffic based o=
n their technical requirements=2E
         =E2=80=A2 Most zero-rating of=
fers will be allowed: Zero-rating is where the data used by certain website=
s or apps is not counted towards a customer=E2=80=99s overall data allowanc=
e=2E Our updated guidance clarifies that we will generally allow these offe=
rs, while setting out the limited circumstances where we might have concern=
s=2E


 I note however, that when I try to access that page today =
I get a cloadflare error:
 Sorry, you have been blocked
 You are unab=
le to access ofcom=2Esquizedge=2Ecloud

 Which might indicate that so=
me parts of the network are not acting in good faith (or I was just unlucky=
 with my current IP address)

 I also note (as Ofcom does itself) tha=
t since Brexit the UK is not bound to the EU's regulation 2015/2120 (see https://eur-lex=2Eeuropa=2Eeu/legal-content/de/TXT/?uri=3DCELEX=
%3A32015R2120 )=2E

 Regards
         Sebastian
 Nnagain ma=
iling list
 Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
 https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/=
listinfo/nnagain



--
Sent from my Android devic= e with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E
------4EQXB7K5WQ2QGPTYL2A1XTZGDOND56--