From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail55.out.titan.email (mail55.out.titan.email [34.227.236.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BCE73CB39 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2024 14:08:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-out.flockmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out.flockmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F63FE00EA; Sat, 9 Mar 2024 19:08:48 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; bh=OyK/SMoqVUyUcQ+WUv6N0psikY4KQKNNY1+a91uzN68=; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=3kitty.org; h=message-id:references:in-reply-to:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to; q=dns/txt; s=titan1; t=1710011328; v=1; b=NSECDiV3WXvXN6QEcQgeWiI+7jkML2J6a2PD5/om/BfsE3dIG5QjGZPBhOvOTz07JDbmKw2o Q0ISBVwVUvrf9u2DumHIVkkUgCFGp0MegC+y978yQBU3cnwzmKyb67rC3nLqhxv3e2y4tY3RHuX MgYJCtd7xFrd7u2keFOd5OwE= Received: from [192.168.1.100] (c-76-137-180-175.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [76.137.180.175]) by smtp-out.flockmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 54403E0097; Sat, 9 Mar 2024 19:08:47 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <07c0bdc8-097b-4eb2-8906-35560a10a686@3kitty.org> Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 11:08:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: David Lang , Jack Haverty via Nnagain Cc: Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <1cd4f95b-eb65-4e25-8e71-f155e9a675a7@3kitty.org> <312144n2-31r3-8306-qs19-2p58qs1rr4r3@ynat.uz> Content-Language: en-US Feedback-ID: :jack@3kitty.org:3kitty.org:flockmailId From: Jack Haverty Autocrypt: addr=jack@3kitty.org; keydata= xsDNBGCm2psBDADGOWO8n9wfkDW9ZUEo8o+SZ5MU9us2il+fS4EFM/RaZFIbQ+P72bExzSd3 WnJdPfqO1O7Q+dRnvVO9+G2/9oT/uRZVaE05+SothzKZBv32HcZoUkdNZOTqSkdo3EwNPjid LLxX+dMBxMpR3pBdvGN8Z7lnZe6fV4QO2xtd58y3B33AVZJp+RuNwucby9dY2meyy2BJVKrx mKhYXAucVyg0ALVIchHt9UknVW4aLvQF+oMfzXVvCWeguW+DvbyazVceWGO7FSgUJ8ED3Ii7 xAR5zZJ1LASoMhG1ixg07P9Uy4ohV6c+c0yV9SY4yqhZ3+zN2cm9h/aXpwjSuiVVAJbK7zzb FjI+h89dbnaVQrLx6GikV0OVYqC6TCeMfCFZQAJLs1icxQi3BLL7O1fbTGatEfTgLa5nqfKq K/D/HlOCUeFxqZI8hXvT5dG4e1m3ilpF2/ytcWKSVg3d699UFntPv3sEbAQwwfXsnuD4Hem6 0Ao0/z41n8x1aeZE80FdkpEAEQEAAc0eSmFjayBIYXZlcnR5IDxqYWNrQDNraXR0eS5vcmc+ wsEJBBMBCAAzFiEEZLvMn5vmvTAlFEILdGzDIkA7jlAFAmCm2pwCGwMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsC BRYCAwEAAAoJEHRswyJAO45QuX0L/jOluv8fr/BmuEEQsWWGW6oARIbjDQrI93kXIJXuPnfp tGjkx/f1TMIzI2B9s/tejiYE7IZOhWbX1YvKF0UbkSJi50UyV9XtYRnLdD5TcksKB4luDF8S R+nj5WBm17Bp8qwriCMgA1jGL2wQ7J1KUw4Q/gsMcjhn/39PevswkriU2qqVplfCs9yTTMU5 SvtE2U9F3Y1ZINHn3kUysvxhRFd+Oh3PocWHmVE+hkII+qsra6z4eztDgoB+vqxmOJEdtvex GhT8OKu74DacguZVfu/AV+cwpX701sdjJrMyKjcv8uhFLM/E5gf6kSUAFxBVwe6pNDmAgmbS c0fAFrZjgXxNxxndpu/8OAUDVzKg+l5WJ0nWss9Q14BwA+FcoclO3lwzFu7jOiLvkm7jQkFB o+p8Owe4iAED1KK/aocIa/RiD4sZ3KXUJ92kkemZ1Qe2XpFVdzxaQDG0huNkc5Mie9rdt62O Ae+5cYdPeWmBVn+pFNs5H09kQQbVR5pUxe2Aps7AzQRgptqcAQwAzzougHNMFr/O/L8HnNJW 1YyOuX0PEVNUXQPwkxKuD8bAXsPr4Hv1a+840ByesiJSadhQgVSMruRqoQC5tTkbEWkqlfDW waNAdqCJOXl2T6gtK7RpcHNx7+/du/gCAhHOXqH1Qfs0Zi3YEbR/kQFRP3wD4GiCvHSny8zJ X9plIHqQGoE5DePNAtE2KimbFMsjguqJgq5x0tMf3qEaMNd0IGTStGpcC49iss71slotH091 Y1Yo9CpzL6rj8IP0BfssEujAvf3Gbf1oi92JRE3s2humFDfPvSlHmRIfWPQ4qFOw1zmlzsV1 eg83gErKbjaDdkbwQA85RTmMVKNVvonM80WB6jAg8tlJ5VlYlpbzASpJRNj+FL1LLBQxCbPU eFwrzqYgNvtdKR7j5nTgdndCxq+2aws/aAjdL10S8yeH7ZOpNPzjDJfMSt/L1O25zPUhXdQC 9AZNYsfyV7rf+POEgVpIEth1fT9WbmS0rZxRd/+y628n31GicbA+teN890vdABEBAAHCwPYE GAEIACAWIQRku8yfm+a9MCUUQgt0bMMiQDuOUAUCYKbanQIbDAAKCRB0bMMiQDuOUF1LC/4q 4pLtmDt6TIET2H7zGj5ie3ng7kC7YqtFPYwgLQzs9WeqQ/5WowEmHOPonBcqhGbtDj22GebQ 7w0RoUHb+aXsbC85I/C+nWgT1ZcfMBTHGlBcIQvOCNG18g87Ha9jgD0HnW4bRUkZmGMpP0Yd TLM+PBNu41AK6z82VPQrfTuPKqwAAS2FK/RpF2xB7rjpETzIPl9Dj9EAkRbviURIg0BQkmej l02FLzGmlTfBIDHBdEgzvD71Z5H9BP8DAbxBzonSTzx/KZyv7njSUzdVLW+5O/WzPgb4Qt4I jQd66LS9HWS1G7AcLjiSQAIf8v7JkX3NwtN+NGX5cmt2p0e9FOOKWXVgCIgPN3/712EEGAgq UUxuPEBD5DrRCgjZL40eHxQza2BAhoVoWopUCGZdCCZJP3iF7818wIph0U393DELG9NAGLJa qkoA8KBimXp9Rd2QvpA864JRy/REoEOEF9lm3clriLyEqaL/VMIQRhl/VSkUuez4Wr68eHus TFdwePg= In-Reply-To: <312144n2-31r3-8306-qs19-2p58qs1rr4r3@ynat.uz> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------ABqvYsjHvehzaXbHlmwqVnU0" X-F-Verdict: SPFVALID X-Titan-Src-Out: 1710011327884348483.4197.6454381498281359567@prod-use1-smtp-out1004. X-CMAE-Score: 0 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=d4zzywjE c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=65ecb3bf a=cdvcmBiFVbz+0Uto4GLkPg==:117 a=cdvcmBiFVbz+0Uto4GLkPg==:17 a=CEWIc4RMnpUA:10 a=13zjGPudsaEWiJwPRgMA:9 a=kurRqvosAAAA:8 a=bILXjT4uAAAA:8 a=vnREMb7VAAAA:8 a=RKT0kQU5AAAA:8 a=5ACOMNb4AAAA:8 a=JqEG_dyiAAAA:8 a=75WfJWK7AAAA:8 a=HSyHuYcvnrvmfg71-UQA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=25Fm61x_EVffhNZQzXAA:9 a=wqf8pT9Ifzkw3syc:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=lqcHg5cX4UMA:10 a=mVcgwxjBTkr3zjpDlhIA:9 a=FfaGCDsud1wA:10 a=MY9zW1aA3LfH8I6rQucA:9 a=kbxRQ_lfPIoQnHsAj2-A:22 a=gFXG8G1-4AZNkDzM2LB8:22 a=5N-aug6nXGC79lwA3rdv:22 a=CvHXRlOlOFBMGMoZekOu:22 a=IfxiEp7CkTO4ied-Dw7W:22 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Subject: Re: [NNagain] When Flows Collide? X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2024 19:08:48 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------ABqvYsjHvehzaXbHlmwqVnU0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------dJbMFd5IcjA5J0UaWd4E5sjz"; protected-headers="v1" From: Jack Haverty To: David Lang , Jack Haverty via Nnagain Cc: Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Message-ID: <07c0bdc8-097b-4eb2-8906-35560a10a686@3kitty.org> Subject: Re: [NNagain] When Flows Collide? 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Thanks for the explanation.=C2=A0 I had heard most of those technolog= y buzzwords but your message puts them into context together. =C2=A0 Prioritization and queue management certainly helps, but I still don't understand how the system behaves when it hits capacity somewhere deep inside -- the "thought experiments" I described with a bottleneck somewhere deep inside the Internet as two flows collide.

The scheme you describe also seems vulnerable to users' innovative tactics to get better service.=C2=A0 E.g., an "ISO download" using so= me scheme like Torrents would spread the traffic around a bunch of connections which may not all go through the same bottleneck and not be judged as low priority.=C2=A0 Also it seems prone to things like D= DOS attacks,=C2=A0 e.g., flooding a path with DNS queries from many bot sources that are judged as high priority.

The behavior "packets get marked/dropped to signal the sender to slow down" seems essentially the same design as the "Source Quench" behavior defined in the early 1980s.=C2=A0 At the time, I was respons= ible for a TCP implementation, and had questions about what my TCP should do when it received such a "slow down" message.=C2=A0 It was especial= ly unclear in certain situations - e.g., if my TCP sent a datagram to open a new connection and got a "slow down" response, what exactly should it do?=C2=A0=C2=A0

There were no good answers back then.=C2=A0 One TCP implementor decid= ed that the best reaction on receiving a "slow down" message was to immediately retransmit the datagram that had just been confirmed to be discarded.=C2=A0 "Slow down" actually meant "Speed up, I threw awa= y your last datagram."

So, I'm still curious about the Internet behavior with the current mechanisms when the system hits its maximum capacity - the two simple scenarios I mentioned with bottlenecks and only two data flows involved that converged at the bottleneck.=C2=A0=C2=A0 What's s= upposed to happen in theory?=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are implementations actually doing w= hat they're supposed to do?=C2=A0 What does happen in a real-world test?<= br>
Jack Haverty

On 3/8/24 18:57, David Lang wrote:
=
this is what bufferbloat has been fighting. The default was that 'data is important, don't throw it away, hang on to it and send it later'

In practice, this has proven to be suboptimal as the buffers grew large enough that the data being buffered was retransmitted anyway (among other problems)

And because the data was buffered, new data arriving was delayed behind the buffered data.

This is measurable as 'latency under load' for light connections. So while latency isn't everything, it turns out to be a good proxy to detect when the standard queuing mechansisms are failing to give you good performance.

It turns out that not all data is equally important. Active Queue Management is the art of deciding priorities, both in deciding what data to throw away, but also in allowing some later arriving data to be transmitted ahead of data in another connection that arrived before it.

With fq_codel and cake, this involves tracking the different connections and their behavior. connections that send relatively little data (DNS lookups, video chat) have priority over connections that send a lot of data (ISO downloads), not based on classifying the data, but by watching the behavior.

connections with a lot of data can buffer a bit, but aren't allowed to use all the available buffer space, after they have used 'their share', packets get marked/dropped to signal the sender to slow down.

While it is possible for an implementation to 'cheat' by detecting the latency probes and prioritizing them, measuring the latency on real data works as well and they can't cheat on that without actually addressing the problem

That's why you see such a significant focus on latency in this group, it's not latency for the sake of latency, it's latency as a sign that new and sparse flows can get a reasonable share of bandwith even in the face of heavy/hostile users on the same links.

David Lang


On Fri, 8 Mar 2024, Jack Haverty via Nnagain wrote:

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 15:44:05 -0800
From: Jack Haverty via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
To: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net, Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
Cc: Jack Haverty <jack@3kitty.org>
Subject: [NNagain] When Flows Collide?

It's great to see that latency is getting attention as well as action to control it.=C2=A0 But it's only part of the bigger pict= ure of Internet performance.

While performance across a particular network is interesting, most uses of the Internet involve data flowing through several separate networks.=C2=A0 That's pretty much the definition of "Internet".=C2=A0 The endpoints might be some kind of LAN in a ho= me or corporate IT facility or public venue.=C2=A0=C2=A0 In between = there might be fiber, radio, satellite, or other (even whimsically avian!?) networks carrying a users data.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This kind of= system configuration has existed since the genesis of The Internet and seems likely to continue. Technology has advanced a lot, with bigger and bigger "pipes" invented to carry more data, but fundamental issues remain.

System configurations we used in the early research days were real experiments to be measured and tested, or often just "thought experiments" to imagine how the system would behave, what algorithms would be appropriate, and what protocols had to exist to coordinate the activities of all the components.

One such configuration was very simple.=C2=A0 Imagine there are t= hree very fast computers, each attached to a very fast LAN.=C2=A0=C2=A0= The computers and LAN can send and receive data as fast as you can imagine, so that they are not a limiting factor.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The = LANs are attached to some "ISP" which isn't as fast (in bandwidth or latency) as a LAN.=C2=A0 ISPs are interconnected at various point= s, forming a somewhat rich mesh of topology with several, or many, possible routes from any source to any destination.

Now imagine a user configuration in which two of the computers send a constant stream of data to the third computer at a predefined rate.=C2=A0 Perhaps it is a UDP datagram every N milliseconds, each datagram containing a frame of video.=C2=A0 If= N=3D20 it corresponds to a 50Hz frame rate, which is common for video.

Somewhere along the way to that common destination, those two data streams collide, and there is a bottleneck.=C2=A0=C2=A0 All = the data coming in cannot fit in the pipe going out.=C2=A0 Something has t= o give.

Thought experiment -- What should happen?=C2=A0 Does the bottlene= ck discard datagrams it can't handle?=C2=A0 How does it decide which= ones to discard?=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does the bottleneck buffer the exces= s datagrams, hoping that the situation is just temporary?=C2=A0=C2=A0= Does the bottleneck somehow signal back to the sources to reduce their data rate?=C2=A0 Does th ebottleneck discard datagrams that= it knows won't reach the destination in time to be useful?=C2=A0 Doe= s the bottleneck trigger some kind of network reconfiguration, perhaps to route "low priority" data along some alternate path to free up capacity for the video streams that requires low latency?

Real experiment -- set up such a configuration and observe what happens, especially from the end-users' perspectives.=C2=A0 What = kind of video does the end-user see?

Second thought experiment -- Using the same configuration, send data using TCP instead of UDP.=C2=A0 This adds more mechanisms, b= ut now in the end-users' computers.=C2=A0 How should the ISPs and TC= Ps involved behave?=C2=A0 How should they cooperate?=C2=A0 What shou= ld happen?=C2=A0 What mechanisms (algorithms, protocols, etc.) are needed to make the system behave that way?

Second real Experiment -- How do the specific TCP implementations actually behave?=C2=A0 What kind of video quality= do the end users experience?=C2=A0 What kind of data flows actually travel through the network components?

Of course we all observe such real experiments every day, whenever we see or participate in various kinds of videoconferences.=C2=A0 Perhaps someone has instrumented and gath= ered performance data...?

These questions were discussed and debated at great length more than 40 years ago as TCP V4 was designed.=C2=A0 We couldn't figur= e out the appropriate algorithms and protocols, and didn't have computer equipment or communications capabilities to implement anything more than the simplest mechanisms anyway.=C2=A0=C2=A0 So= the topic became an item on the "future study" list.

But we did put various "placeholder" mechanisms in place in TCP/IP V4, as a reminder that a "real" solution was needed for some future next generation release.=C2=A0 Time-to-live (TTL) wou= ld likely need to be based on actual time instead of hops - which were silly but the best we could do with available equipment at the time.=C2=A0 Source Quench (SQ) needed to be replaced by a mor= e effective mechanism, and include details of how all the components should act when sending or receiving an SQ.=C2=A0=C2=A0= Routing needed to be expanded to add the ability to send different data flows over different routes, so that bulk and interactive data could more readily coexist.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Lots of such issues to be= resolved.

In the meanwhile, the general consensus was that everything would work OK as long as the traffic flows only rarely created "bottleneck" situations, and such events would be short and transitory.=C2=A0=C2=A0 There wasn't a lot of data flow yet; the = Internet was still an Experiment.=C2=A0 We figured we'd be OK for a while = as the research continued and found solutions.

Meanwhile, the Web happened.=C2=A0 Videoconferencing, vlogs, and other generators of high traffic exploded.=C2=A0 Clouds have form= ed, with users now interacting with very remote computers instead of the ones on their desks or down the hall.

As Dorothy would say, "We're not in Kansas anymore".

Jack Haverty








On 3/8/24 12:31, Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote:
I am deeply appreciative of everyones efforts here over the past 3
years, and within starlink burning the midnight oil on their 20ms
goal, (especially nathan!!!!) to make all the progress made on their
systems in these past few months. I was so happy to burn about 12
minutes, publicly, taking apart Oleg's results here, last week:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D= N0Tmvv5jJKs&t=3D1760s

But couldn't then and still can't talk better to the whys and the
problems remaining. (It's not a kernel problem, actually)

As for starlink/space support of us, bufferbloat.net, and/or lowering
latency across the internet in general, I don't know. I keep hoping a
used tesla motor for my boat will arrive in the mail one day, that's
all. :)

It is my larger hope that with this news, all the others doing FWA,
and for that matter, cable, and fiber, will also get on the stick,
finally. Maybe someone in the press will explain bufferbloat. Who
knows what the coming days hold!?

13 herbs and spices....

On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 3:10=E2=80=AFPM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
Starlink<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>=C2=A0= wrote:
it would be a super good and appreciative gesture if they would disclose what/if any of the stuff they are making use of and then also to make a donation :)

On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 12:50=E2=80=AFPM J Pan<Pan@uvic.ca>=C2= =A0 wrote:
they benefited a lot from this mailing list and the research and even
user community at large
--
J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM),Pan@UVic.CA, Web.UVic.CA/~pan


On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:40=E2=80=AFAM the keyboard of geo= ff goodfellow via
Starlink<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>= =C2=A0 wrote:
Super excited to be able to share= some of what we have been working on over the last few months!
EXCERPT:

Starlink engineering teams have been focused on improving the performance of our network with the goal of delivering a service with stable 20 millisecond (ms) median latency and minimal packet loss.

Over the past month, we have meaningfully reduced median and worst-case latency for users around the world. In the United States alone, we reduced median latency by more than 30%, from 48.5ms to 33ms during hours of peak usage. Worst-case peak hour latency (p99) has dropped by over 60%, from over 150ms to less than 65ms. Outside of the United States, we have also reduced median latency by up to 25% and worst-case latencies by up to 35%...

[...]
https://api.starlink.com/public-files/Starli= nkLatency.pdf
via
https://twitter.com/Starlink/s= tatus/1766179308887028005
&
https://twitter.com/VirtuallyNathan/sta= tus/1766179789927522460


--
Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
living as The Truth is True

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo= /starlink

--
Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
living as The Truth is True

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/sta= rlink 





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