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(jack@3kitty.org@76.137.180.175) by 209.237.134.154 with ESMTPA; 16 Nov 2023 18:44:54 -0000 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------PqJMI76AH4ztBWv3oS1qfGpo" Message-ID: <0850b5a9-0754-475a-8633-95529208409c@3kitty.org> Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 10:44:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: en-US To: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net References: From: Jack Haverty Autocrypt: addr=jack@3kitty.org; keydata= xsDNBGCm2psBDADGOWO8n9wfkDW9ZUEo8o+SZ5MU9us2il+fS4EFM/RaZFIbQ+P72bExzSd3 WnJdPfqO1O7Q+dRnvVO9+G2/9oT/uRZVaE05+SothzKZBv32HcZoUkdNZOTqSkdo3EwNPjid LLxX+dMBxMpR3pBdvGN8Z7lnZe6fV4QO2xtd58y3B33AVZJp+RuNwucby9dY2meyy2BJVKrx mKhYXAucVyg0ALVIchHt9UknVW4aLvQF+oMfzXVvCWeguW+DvbyazVceWGO7FSgUJ8ED3Ii7 xAR5zZJ1LASoMhG1ixg07P9Uy4ohV6c+c0yV9SY4yqhZ3+zN2cm9h/aXpwjSuiVVAJbK7zzb FjI+h89dbnaVQrLx6GikV0OVYqC6TCeMfCFZQAJLs1icxQi3BLL7O1fbTGatEfTgLa5nqfKq K/D/HlOCUeFxqZI8hXvT5dG4e1m3ilpF2/ytcWKSVg3d699UFntPv3sEbAQwwfXsnuD4Hem6 0Ao0/z41n8x1aeZE80FdkpEAEQEAAc0eSmFjayBIYXZlcnR5IDxqYWNrQDNraXR0eS5vcmc+ wsEJBBMBCAAzFiEEZLvMn5vmvTAlFEILdGzDIkA7jlAFAmCm2pwCGwMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsC BRYCAwEAAAoJEHRswyJAO45QuX0L/jOluv8fr/BmuEEQsWWGW6oARIbjDQrI93kXIJXuPnfp tGjkx/f1TMIzI2B9s/tejiYE7IZOhWbX1YvKF0UbkSJi50UyV9XtYRnLdD5TcksKB4luDF8S R+nj5WBm17Bp8qwriCMgA1jGL2wQ7J1KUw4Q/gsMcjhn/39PevswkriU2qqVplfCs9yTTMU5 SvtE2U9F3Y1ZINHn3kUysvxhRFd+Oh3PocWHmVE+hkII+qsra6z4eztDgoB+vqxmOJEdtvex GhT8OKu74DacguZVfu/AV+cwpX701sdjJrMyKjcv8uhFLM/E5gf6kSUAFxBVwe6pNDmAgmbS c0fAFrZjgXxNxxndpu/8OAUDVzKg+l5WJ0nWss9Q14BwA+FcoclO3lwzFu7jOiLvkm7jQkFB o+p8Owe4iAED1KK/aocIa/RiD4sZ3KXUJ92kkemZ1Qe2XpFVdzxaQDG0huNkc5Mie9rdt62O Ae+5cYdPeWmBVn+pFNs5H09kQQbVR5pUxe2Aps7AzQRgptqcAQwAzzougHNMFr/O/L8HnNJW 1YyOuX0PEVNUXQPwkxKuD8bAXsPr4Hv1a+840ByesiJSadhQgVSMruRqoQC5tTkbEWkqlfDW waNAdqCJOXl2T6gtK7RpcHNx7+/du/gCAhHOXqH1Qfs0Zi3YEbR/kQFRP3wD4GiCvHSny8zJ X9plIHqQGoE5DePNAtE2KimbFMsjguqJgq5x0tMf3qEaMNd0IGTStGpcC49iss71slotH091 Y1Yo9CpzL6rj8IP0BfssEujAvf3Gbf1oi92JRE3s2humFDfPvSlHmRIfWPQ4qFOw1zmlzsV1 eg83gErKbjaDdkbwQA85RTmMVKNVvonM80WB6jAg8tlJ5VlYlpbzASpJRNj+FL1LLBQxCbPU eFwrzqYgNvtdKR7j5nTgdndCxq+2aws/aAjdL10S8yeH7ZOpNPzjDJfMSt/L1O25zPUhXdQC 9AZNYsfyV7rf+POEgVpIEth1fT9WbmS0rZxRd/+y628n31GicbA+teN890vdABEBAAHCwPYE GAEIACAWIQRku8yfm+a9MCUUQgt0bMMiQDuOUAUCYKbanQIbDAAKCRB0bMMiQDuOUF1LC/4q 4pLtmDt6TIET2H7zGj5ie3ng7kC7YqtFPYwgLQzs9WeqQ/5WowEmHOPonBcqhGbtDj22GebQ 7w0RoUHb+aXsbC85I/C+nWgT1ZcfMBTHGlBcIQvOCNG18g87Ha9jgD0HnW4bRUkZmGMpP0Yd TLM+PBNu41AK6z82VPQrfTuPKqwAAS2FK/RpF2xB7rjpETzIPl9Dj9EAkRbviURIg0BQkmej l02FLzGmlTfBIDHBdEgzvD71Z5H9BP8DAbxBzonSTzx/KZyv7njSUzdVLW+5O/WzPgb4Qt4I jQd66LS9HWS1G7AcLjiSQAIf8v7JkX3NwtN+NGX5cmt2p0e9FOOKWXVgCIgPN3/712EEGAgq UUxuPEBD5DrRCgjZL40eHxQza2BAhoVoWopUCGZdCCZJP3iF7818wIph0U393DELG9NAGLJa qkoA8KBimXp9Rd2QvpA864JRy/REoEOEF9lm3clriLyEqaL/VMIQRhl/VSkUuez4Wr68eHus TFdwePg= In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [NNagain] the real state of "smart agriculture"? X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 18:44:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------PqJMI76AH4ztBWv3oS1qfGpo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Rohan, I have little experience in farming, but your description of the environment sounds a lot like the conditions in industrial plants, warehouses, etc. If you haven't already, it may be worth researching the history of the MAP/TOP efforts in the 80s.  These were systems developed by industrial players specifically for use in industrial situations, such as manufacturing plants, warehouses, distribution centers, et al where there are lots of things that block or interfere with signals.   See, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Automation_Protocol MAP/TOP died out as Ethernet became the dominant LAN technology and the market for MAP/TOP devices never developed.   But there may be some lessons learned then that would be helpful to you today. Jack Haverty On 11/13/23 15:31, Rohan M via Nnagain wrote: > Hi All, > > I am the Head of IT and Engineering for Flavorite, one of the largest > hydroponic glasshouse producers in the southern hemisphere with ~100ha > under glass. We predominantly focus on tomatoes, capsicums, cucumbers > and blueberries (the latter are not glasshouse grown). Glasshouse > production is typically 60% more water efficient than conventional > cropping, or said another way, it uses 1/3 of the water of > conventional cropping. > > We have several different environments that span large distances and > use a myriad of different technologies to support them. > > In the glasshouses our biggest challenge is getting a signal through a > glass, a metal frame, and thick foliage which is >90% water. Foliage > is typically very dense and layered which creates a perfect sink for > the majority of signals.  (eg > https://investgippsland.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Flavorite-2-e1574123141523-756x350.jpg > ) > > Glasshouse environments: > In the glasshouse we have long spans (varies but up to 400m/1312ft) of > centre paths that are up to 4m across and concreted (eg > https://www.atophort.com/files/News/202110/tomatoes-in-greenhouse.jpg ) > > The typical temperatures in the glasshouses ranges from about > 20C (68F) to 45C (113F) - more in direct sun during summer, with high > humidity at times, this is a barrier for a lot of devices, as it will > push a processor idling at 50C across the 95C threshold and cause it > to crash. > > Primary communication there is via wifi, we often use 3 unifi points > (Flex HD/U6 mesh) to cover the centre path, but we are trialling the > unifi Mesh Pro AC points as they have shown to cover larger areas. > Wifi (or any signal) access down rows more than about 5m off the > centre path generally is poor, but with points up high enough we have > enough to keep the fresnel zones clear around the APs. One problem > here is that we have to mount the APs on steel uprights, which may or > may not have hydronic heating tubes nearby. > > Wireless communication for moisture sensing is done by proprietary > systems, but they typically use LoraWan, with a gateway to the main > network. These have poor propagation past 50m in these environments > due to the wavelengths and the foliage, so sometimes do not register > correctly. > > Even though there is a 5g mobile repeater nearby (~1km away), getting > reception on any mobile network in a glasshouse is generally nigh > impossible. > > Warehouse/Packing environments: > Warehouse/Packing environments have a large amount of industrial > equipment for grading, packing, weighing and sorting fruit for > delivery and logistics. These environments typically have a lot of > metal on the general work floor which reflects or grounds signals. The > walls and ceiling are made of aluminum alloy which sandwiches > insulation foam (as the whole area is temperature controlled), there > is heavy cement reinforced with rebar fire walls between major > sections, and a cement/concrete floor. The whole structure acts as a > Faraday's cage, so there are no signals going outside, and inside, as > mentioned, there is a lot of industrial equipment. > > Size of these environments approximates the same as glasshouses - 600m > x 300m typically. > > In this environment we have approximately 60-80 wifi devices, a lot of > people who use "wi-fi calling" on mobile devices. 5g signal > propagation in such areas is non-existent, especially in rural areas. > Boosters have been tried, and failed, many times, with calls dropping > out regularly. > > Getting any signal propagation across the environment is a challenge. > Typically how we handle this is by ceiling mounted APs, but we find > that without AP based SQM these units experience bufferbloat, which > causes calls to drop out, or pause. The typical farmer mentality in > these instances is to put in a bigger AP, but this has not solved the > problem (even with the enormous stadium type units). The next stage > here is to try more APs in strategic locations. > > It should be noted that in some such environments there are multiple > very large, 16kva (or above) pumps which have large magnetic fields > despite isolation etc. The way we've managed that is by having more > density of points in those areas, which improves things but doesn't > solve them. > > Blueberry fields: > Blueberry fields are similar to glasshouses, plants grow up to 1.7m > (5ft6in) and have dense foliage, similar layout to inside of a > glasshouse, however larger areas (500m/1640ft square is typical) with > varying degrees of elevation depending on the site. Getting a signal > here is also a challenge. So far we have deployed Unifi Mesh Pro AC > units at the top of treated pine poles around 2M up, three of these > units allow long distance wifi down the main paths (circa 350-400m > range each), and approximately 10m/32ft into the blueberry rows. > > Typical applications here are tablets and phones for voip. Density of > client devices is much lower than the other environments, with > 20 clients typically per field at any time. > > > In summary - 4g/5g in these environments is of limited use due to lack > of ability to foster signal propagation and the fact that these > locations are rural, which means infrastructure typically is poor in > the area. > > Cheers > Rohan M > > On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 11:44 PM Dave Taht wrote: > > (I am hoping others on this list with real-world AG experience can > chime in? I enjoy realworld stories about present solutions and pain > points[2]) > > I have often been dubious of the 5g hope to dominate any major > component of a smart ag architecture except perhaps FWA, (where > starlink is poised and people also want to run fiber) to give it a > good run for the money- 5g chips are too big, too hard to power, and > too complex, and come with a monthly billing model and other > centralized requirements that make organic evolution and solid support > in remote environments dicy and expensive. > > I freely concede that I may be wrong, that with sufficient subsidies, > we will end up hanging the equivalent of a cellphone off of every > suitably large piece of gear and ship all the data up to the cloud, > rather than pre-process locally. Certainly the benefits of gps and > drones are being shown every day, along with satellite weather and > other forms of satellite analysis. [1] > > But the 5g sensor market? No. Nowadays smart sensors are easily > constructed out of wifi devices such as these which cost 5 dollars or > less: > > https://www.amazon.com/DORHEA-Development-Microcontroller-NodeMCU-32S-ESP-WROOM-32/dp/B086MJGFVV/ref=asc_df_B086MJGFVV/ > > And the more meshy LoRA stuff now has much better range (4 miles), at > low complexity and power also. > > then there are things like amazon sidewalk: > https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=21328123011 > > > And airtags. > > [1] On the other hand rigorous analysis of the food we produce has > recently discovered a marked decline in the percentage of nutritious > minerals over the past 100 years. Please see: > > https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09637486.2021.1981831 > > How smart is that? > > [2] Massive subsidy and diversion of river resources to the water > hungry california almond industry during the last 7 years of drought > led to the cancellation of the salmon fishing season last year. > > You should hear some of the invective that I used to hear aimed at > "the f-ing vegetarians" along the docks I frequent in half moon bay. > That I used to hear, anyway, The docks are eerily silent, the workers > at other jobs, the boats not going out for anything except crab and > squid. > > How smart is that? The California water table is a disaster, too. I > vastly prefer salmon to almonds personally.... > > I guess a meta point is easily gathering tactical data is one thing, > sharing it sanely another, deciding on how to use it strategically, > another. > > -- > :( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab > Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos > > > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain --------------PqJMI76AH4ztBWv3oS1qfGpo Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Rohan,

I have little experience in farming, but your description of the environment sounds a lot like the conditions in industrial plants, warehouses, etc.

If you haven't already, it may be worth researching the history of the MAP/TOP efforts in the 80s.  These were systems developed by industrial players specifically for use in industrial situations, such as manufacturing plants, warehouses, distribution centers, et al where there are lots of things that block or interfere with signals.   See, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Automation_Protocol

MAP/TOP died out as Ethernet became the dominant LAN technology and the market for MAP/TOP devices never developed.   But there may be some lessons learned then that would be helpful to you today.

Jack Haverty


On 11/13/23 15:31, Rohan M via Nnagain wrote:
Hi All,

I am the Head of IT and Engineering for Flavorite, one of the largest hydroponic glasshouse producers in the southern hemisphere with ~100ha under glass. We predominantly focus on tomatoes, capsicums, cucumbers and blueberries (the latter are not glasshouse grown). Glasshouse production is typically 60% more water efficient than conventional cropping, or said another way, it uses 1/3 of the water of conventional cropping.

We have several different environments that span large distances and use a myriad of different technologies to support them. 

In the glasshouses our biggest challenge is getting a signal through a glass, a metal frame, and thick foliage which is >90% water. Foliage is typically very dense and layered which creates a perfect sink for the majority of signals.  (eg https://investgippsland.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Flavorite-2-e1574123141523-756x350.jpg ) 

Glasshouse environments:
In the glasshouse we have long spans (varies but up to 400m/1312ft) of centre paths that are up to 4m across and concreted (eg https://www.atophort.com/files/News/202110/tomatoes-in-greenhouse.jpg ) 

The typical temperatures in the glasshouses ranges from about 20C (68F) to 45C (113F) - more in direct sun during summer, with high humidity at times, this is a barrier for a lot of devices, as it will push a processor idling at 50C across the 95C threshold and cause it to crash.

Primary communication there is via wifi, we often use 3 unifi points (Flex HD/U6 mesh) to cover the centre path, but we are trialling the unifi Mesh Pro AC points as they have shown to cover larger areas. Wifi (or any signal) access down rows more than about 5m off the centre path generally is poor, but with points up high enough we have enough to keep the fresnel zones clear around the APs. One problem here is that we have to mount the APs on steel uprights, which may or may not have hydronic heating tubes nearby.

Wireless communication for moisture sensing is done by proprietary systems, but they typically use LoraWan, with a gateway to the main network. These have poor propagation past 50m in these environments due to the wavelengths and the foliage, so sometimes do not register correctly.

Even though there is a 5g mobile repeater nearby (~1km away), getting reception on any mobile network in a glasshouse is generally nigh impossible. 

Warehouse/Packing environments:
Warehouse/Packing environments have a large amount of industrial equipment for grading, packing, weighing and sorting fruit for delivery and logistics. These environments typically have a lot of metal on the general work floor which reflects or grounds signals. The walls and ceiling are made of aluminum alloy which sandwiches insulation foam (as the whole area is temperature controlled), there is heavy cement reinforced with rebar fire walls between major sections, and a cement/concrete floor. The whole structure acts as a Faraday's cage, so there are no signals going outside, and inside, as mentioned, there is a lot of industrial equipment.  

Size of these environments approximates the same as glasshouses - 600m x 300m typically. 

In this environment we have approximately 60-80 wifi devices, a lot of people who use "wi-fi calling" on mobile devices. 5g signal propagation in such areas is non-existent, especially in rural areas. Boosters have been tried, and failed, many times, with calls dropping out regularly.

Getting any signal propagation across the environment is a challenge. Typically how we handle this is by ceiling mounted APs, but we find that without AP based SQM these units experience bufferbloat, which causes calls to drop out, or pause. The typical farmer mentality in these instances is to put in a bigger AP, but this has not solved the problem (even with the enormous stadium type units). The next stage here is to try more APs in strategic locations.

It should be noted that in some such environments there are multiple very large, 16kva (or above) pumps which have large magnetic fields despite isolation etc. The way we've managed that is by having more density of points in those areas, which improves things but doesn't solve them.

Blueberry fields:
Blueberry fields are similar to glasshouses, plants grow up to 1.7m (5ft6in) and have dense foliage, similar layout to inside of a glasshouse, however larger areas (500m/1640ft square is typical) with varying degrees of elevation depending on the site. Getting a signal here is also a challenge. So far we have deployed Unifi Mesh Pro AC units at the top of treated pine poles around 2M up, three of these units allow long distance wifi down the main paths (circa 350-400m range each), and approximately 10m/32ft into the blueberry rows.

Typical applications here are tablets and phones for voip. Density of client devices is much lower than the other environments, with 20 clients typically per field at any time.  


In summary - 4g/5g in these environments is of limited use due to lack of ability to foster signal propagation and the fact that these locations are rural, which means infrastructure typically is poor in the area. 

Cheers
Rohan M

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 11:44 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
(I am hoping others on this list with real-world AG experience can
chime in? I enjoy realworld stories about present solutions and pain
points[2])

I have often been dubious of the 5g hope to dominate any major
component of a smart ag architecture except perhaps FWA, (where
starlink is poised and people also want to run fiber) to give it a
good run for the money- 5g chips are too big, too hard to power, and
too complex, and come with a monthly billing model and other
centralized requirements that make organic evolution and solid support
in remote environments dicy and expensive.

I freely concede that I may be wrong, that with sufficient subsidies,
we will end up hanging the equivalent of a cellphone off of every
suitably large piece of gear and ship all the data up to the cloud,
rather than pre-process locally. Certainly the benefits of gps and
drones are being shown every day, along with satellite weather and
other forms of satellite analysis. [1]

But the 5g sensor market? No. Nowadays smart sensors are easily
constructed out of wifi devices such as these which cost 5 dollars or
less:

https://www.amazon.com/DORHEA-Development-Microcontroller-NodeMCU-32S-ESP-WROOM-32/dp/B086MJGFVV/ref=asc_df_B086MJGFVV/

And the more meshy LoRA stuff now has much better range (4 miles), at
low complexity and power also.

then there are things like amazon sidewalk:
https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=21328123011

And airtags.

[1] On the other hand rigorous analysis of the food we produce has
recently discovered a marked decline in the percentage of nutritious
minerals over the past 100 years. Please see:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09637486.2021.1981831

How smart is that?

[2] Massive subsidy and diversion of river resources to the water
hungry california almond industry during the last 7 years of drought
led to the cancellation of the salmon fishing season last year.

You should hear some of the invective that I used to hear aimed at
"the f-ing vegetarians" along the docks I frequent in half moon bay.
That I used to hear, anyway, The docks are eerily silent, the workers
at other jobs, the boats not going out for anything except crab and
squid.

How smart is that? The California water table is a disaster, too. I
vastly prefer salmon to almonds personally....

I guess a meta point is easily gathering tactical data is one thing,
sharing it sanely another, deciding on how to use it strategically,
another.

--
:( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain

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