From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bosmailout07.eigbox.net (bosmailout07.eigbox.net [66.96.185.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 903E33B29D for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:37:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from bosmailscan01.eigbox.net ([10.20.15.1]) by bosmailout07.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1r309p-0002Vj-5t for nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:37:13 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alum.mit.edu; s=dkim; h=Sender:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Cc:To:From: Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender :Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Iuf/utx3LgK4v3BQGefw95I2y5hP0EmbffrQh2bofag=; b=qiyOOP5gYe5bfaMTXpDIhaDrSF OgoLHZxR8gYQ02wdXmw+N8ilmiI3m+gmhrZOcxw2hOEx0GB+pQv1DHsByt3A7KMR5gWuWIJ5IGW6I 6N5lcDftO3GhkNohGGv+F1UAzy8Neuu97WjogpnTRggCi8mpMudSBpScaOBAhOJMbrv0corV/6S/E XJeNy+/HOtk2RbAk7dh/PJsY5MgOdsP1r2fYE+hSXRCJOfpQ1E7tvtS1OnDx1RygsGFT20BEi1AnA 3xduaXlTqm61pRqNAswq3SI51rH/Wr5R9zdhKMKVX3qgAKzIfZUZ+cl/HG4JKVEgbF9lltQ9hL/Os U5CT1DPA==; Received: from [10.115.3.32] (helo=bosimpout12) by bosmailscan01.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1r309o-00012e-UG for nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:37:12 -0500 Received: from bosauthsmtp17.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.20.18.17]) by bosimpout12 with id ALd92B0080N5uqq01LdCtP; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:37:12 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=dOg9ZNRb c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=f4kFLigMKr8AH7rIJ//qJA==:117 a=tKttg/DTfI8zZz0UFxdR5w==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=BNY50KLci1gA:10 a=kurRqvosAAAA:8 a=bILXjT4uAAAA:8 a=JqEG_dyiAAAA:8 a=hCeqalgxaLRa3Jn3cSoA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=kbxRQ_lfPIoQnHsAj2-A:22 a=gFXG8G1-4AZNkDzM2LB8:22 a=sK0p3ZU6OCmgYLQZgZ-U:22 Received: from c-73-158-253-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([73.158.253.41]:50201 helo=SRA6) by bosauthsmtp17.eigbox.net with esmtpa (Exim) id 1r309l-0002Lb-4c; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:37:09 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Dick Roy" To: =?UTF-8?Q?'Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let?= =?UTF-8?Q?=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_he?= =?UTF-8?Q?ard_this_time!'?= References: <96DDD887-4AC2-4F11-9B49-5ED6FC3F5FA2@gmx.de> <1F39BCDB-1AE0-45D4-B622-411478465119@gmx.de> <88229433-r4qo-059s-8n2r-8pnpp65p3p27@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: <88229433-r4qo-059s-8n2r-8pnpp65p3p27@ynat.uz> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 12:37:05 -0800 Organization: SRA Message-ID: <0F1EFA1897A64D639DBD4A9CB99EECE6@SRA6> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AdoXNVnp1n6BfuAYSDyzKEHuLEUw4QABIVKA x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE X-EN-UserInfo: f809475445fb8041985048e338e1a001:931c98230c6409dcc37fa7e93b490c27 X-EN-AuthUser: dickroy@intellicommunications.com Sender: "Dick Roy" X-EN-OrigIP: 73.158.253.41 X-EN-OrigHost: c-73-158-253-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net Subject: Re: [NNagain] FCC NOI due dec 1 on broadband speed standards X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 20:37:13 -0000 Stanford did a study a number of years ago on how information is = conveyed between humans. How much of the information conveyed is = contained in the words that are spoken??? Answer ... less than 20%. = That alone explains why F2F is sooooooo important ...=20 -----Original Message----- From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf = Of David Lang via Nnagain Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2023 12:01 PM To: Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain Cc: David Lang Subject: Re: [NNagain] FCC NOI due dec 1 on broadband speed standards It's really hard to overhear a nearby conversation that catches your = interest in=20 a zoom environment compared to what happens at the 'hallway track' when = you are=20 in-person If all you are interested in is the session contents, then video = recordings=20 (possibly supplemented by the ability to ask questions) is all you need. but good conferences offer much more than just that. David Lang On Tue, 14 Nov 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain wrote: > Hi Jack, > > My argument is this is not a hard or software problem, but a wetware = problem, hard to shake off million years of evolution. And IIRC during = covid, didn't the IETF do online only meetings? > > I am not saying video conferencing is doomed, it came a long way in = the covid years and is 'here to stay', but it will only replace face to = face meetings for some conditions, is all I am saying.... > > On 14 November 2023 14:27:28 GMT-05:00, Jack Haverty = wrote: >> In the beginning days of the Arpanet, circa early 1970s, ARPA made a = policy decision about use of the Arpanet. First, Arpa Program Managers, = located on the East Coast of the US, were assigned computer accounts on = USC-ISIA, located on the West Coast in LA. Thus to do their work, = exchanging email, editting documents, and such, they had to *use* the = Arpanet to connect their terminals in Washington to the PDP-10 in = California - 3000 miles away. >> >> Second, ARPA began requiring all of their contractors (researchers at = Universities etc.) to interact with Arpa using email and FTP. If your = site was "on the Arpanet", you had to use the Arpanet. If you wanted = your proposal for next year's research to be funded, you had to submit = your proposal using the net. >> >> This policy caused a profound attention, by everyone involved, to = making the Arpanet work and be useful as a collaboration tool. >> >> JCR Licklider (aka Lick) was my advisor at MIT, and then my boss when = I joined the Research Staff. Lick had been at ARPA for a while, = promoting his vision of a "Galactic Network" that resulted in the = Arpanet as a first step. At MIT, Lick still had need for lots of = interactions with others. My assignment was to build and operate the = email system for Lick's group at MIT on our own PDP-10. Lick had a = terminal in his office and was online a lot. If email didn't work, I = heard about it. If the Arpanet didn't work, BBN heard about it. >> >> This pressure was part of Arpa policy. Sometimes it's referred to = as "eating your own dog food" -- i.e., making sure your "dog" will get = the same kind of nutrition you enjoy. IMHO, that pressure policy was = important, perhaps crucial, to the success of the Arpanet. >> >> In the 70s, meetings still occurred, but a lot of progress was made = through the use of the Arpanet. You can only do so much with email and = file interactions. Today, the possibilities for far richer interactions = are much more prevalent. But IMHO they are held back, possibly because = no one is feeling the pressure to "make it work". Gigabit throughputs = are common, but why does my video and audio still break up...? >> >> It's important to have face-to-face meetings, but perhaps if the IETF = scheduled a future meeting to be online only, whatever needs to happen = to make it work would happen? Perhaps... >> >> Even a "game" might drive progress. At Interop '92, we resurrected = the old "MazeWars" game using computers scattered across the show = exhibit halls. The engineers in the control room above the floor felt = the pressure to make sure the Game continued to run. At the time, the = Internet itself was too slow for enjoyable gameplay at any distance. = Will the Internet 30 years later work? >> >> Or perhaps the IETF, or ISOC, or someone could take on a highly = visible demo involving non-techie end users. An online meeting of the = UN General Assembly? Or some government bodies - US Congress, British = Parliament, etc. >> >> Such an event would surface the issues, both technical and policy, to = the engineers, corporations, policy-makers, and others who might have = the ability and interest to "make it work". >> >> Jack >> >> >> On 11/14/23 10:10, Sebastian Moeller wrote: >>> Hi Jack, >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 14, 2023, at 13:02, Jack Haverty via = Nnagain wrote: >>>> >>>> If video conferencing worked well enough, they would not have to = all get together in one place and would instead hold IETF meetings = online ...? >>> [SM] Turns out that humans are social creatures, and some things = work better face-to-face and in the hallway (and if that is only = building trust and sympathy) than over any remote technology. >>> >>> >>>> Did anyone measure latency? Does anyone measure throughput of = "useful" traffic - e.g., excluding video/audio data that didn't arrive = in time to be actually used on the screen or speaker? >>> [SM] Utility is in the eye of the beholder, no? >>> >>> >>>> Jack Haverty >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/14/23 09:25, Vint Cerf via Nnagain wrote: >>>>> if they had not been all together they would have been consuming = tons of video capacity doing video conference calls.... >>>>> >>>>> :-)) >>>>> v >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 10:46=E2=80=AFAM Livingood, Jason via = Nnagain wrote: >>>>> On the subject of how much bandwidth does one household need, = here's a fun stat for you. >>>>> >>>>> At the IETF=E2=80=99s 118th meeting last week (Nov 4 =E2=80=93 = 10, 2023), there were over 1,000 engineers in attendance. At peak there = were 870 devices connected to the WiFi network. Peak bandwidth usage: >>>>> >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Downstream peak ~750 Mbps >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Upstream ~250 Mbps >>>>> From my pre-meeting Twitter poll = (https://twitter.com/jlivingood/status/1720060429311901873): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: >>>>> Vint Cerf >>>>> Google, LLC >>>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor >>>>> Reston, VA 20190 >>>>> +1 (571) 213 1346 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> until further notice >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>>> >>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > >