From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A34943B2A4 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:40:00 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1698086398; x=1698691198; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=K73HgVRWRpaBWfvCb6vsyPdJuPsTNAkpebSzPbrScos=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References: To; b=DSYFSRtPWuuavnkxPAn4X1Oi72Vvld8yvDBO1G9qa7a0K2BGhNnVLTlldm1SKHXd o1Eb0Hq6sav5GvFe4LOfmlNU6s4riYojaz4EIr5t+Wc/p6b6nxMWub0pyaNuEP7ZW +Grv0x/si5vcu5p1Do/EL7xT2gflHJa0KXlcXELrk5r56FrQ2+RcPqzxYu/RvB8ky T79YvF5PpF3LGhxHwsLjG8vRT5LzkS5ob/5kDRXvpNpI45cFTE3wQho9EgDDw9aE0 DlVRZ49WCZxoAuWuxhR9xeuwwV+mePQh2QhTP69i8tzYBKvnID/NthFlT23h2j7zo UIutBF9zk6UmMYd0xQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([77.1.80.220]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MwQXH-1rktRL0JYz-00sP3V; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 20:39:58 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.4\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 20:39:56 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <10D3073A-47F4-4004-AE37-1DE8A3248085@gmx.de> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.4) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:fls5zhWOmp1/xeFepXhVY5FrfCTOYUwFSKSFqQCmFCB9G5jkKx9 ksQJwA0uUpUPafGgoawpr3GLtOEC6pOP3ye7cG2bCyvGhwfMcr8Rj7qkBbTpq1fVIvKfXSt ZjpQy+tYBstwc7tEN44PXJ0so1cG1KHmtTT1LxuQu2jVoOBDsHwQ+zjvnHTZsArzBHBvi79 bseCvqMYN+cgt2u5B6KHA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:StpYzINXsnE=;y53Jodu2MVDarjaPcXNIIYfB9p6 fGotKBzP05EUdGuojy/kOHTmTy6E6KIpm3vav17ty/rQDXdXKkpS46/5s6hpQgVZezNYUqJcu L2ZoZlojM+QCeOFMxnKlDJXQ9kylKN5P5p+9TW4VER5xGgKqrlbQjfgs5mihuD2+hwsZPY/gI kPELzlWQUXNkX3ZaSjRr+lAJdAweitUiMS/rJT7MENBlsiUc/WAwLZgI8QtaGdzp/10/fs7l4 VM+i8cRTViSKVbS5jASB82rEqh30oECMaAZvMO73l74az/MuxSWfLzqDBgUzzUbuWLDJkNcx1 vSNUkk620tXe6mbHyFrBX8RgEPSxKmq9XzX16GUJV0Az4xag7dI5nkRtj81wEzRji7yXVIHby OypBBMe5v/XxFSaCDBdgM5rMuBAnC2+udac4fxlTrReqidzTW63rt8vUGBoAb+Sj+gPG0C+WQ kKYssMaoz9Z+di3IxTe2YlQELKOc9HRW4WugxW6YLKFpnUMY/CEUJuOWOunyzM0tbfzRFL541 eHQKlzZBhPY0S9CpO3CB1VwwQ7KVYu+ZWq/5dVgIjAOMzuweT0Q5KTHul6j4eZ/rdAS3cX6c7 gcbzDYdyXc34OsJHw4Wn+yx05VwCsEKYtQlsjK4cofFbqbdtmjRmjmFoKZWmVBgcnm6M84zyf 0pcIlsfSu9WsJPKMAm/Kwx6RGZC9hXUbnAaYCUMHHvGsj+FAdmU/L+p1z4VxyQC8Rl873PPME M2LqklJqWya/BOhbWURiW9gPIm5pK3zXEdCyNFra0IdwVXNZuOn45yK2797GpRwCUwv3iynNv glnVOZtOZS8Yw+Uqr5WQ39pFVCrwot/jUp1uDonmpZsTvP581E0dS8Pg3iws5a3Roc2MYXCtS PbtTrbCkj6EMlI1mCEKgngPolbNNvxclAqMak6us8QFgYbsUVTc6fBV+5ArOoohCWwAlmGRN1 m216iQ== Subject: Re: [NNagain] upgrading old routers to modern, secure FOSS X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 18:40:01 -0000 Hi Dave, > On Oct 23, 2023, at 19:58, Dave Taht via Nnagain = wrote: >=20 > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 10:04=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht = wrote: >>=20 >> I loved that this guy and his ISP burned a couple weeks learning how >> to build openwrt, built something exactly to the need, *had it work >> the first time* and are in progress to update in place 200+ routers = to >> better router software, that just works, with videoconferencing, IPv6 >> support, and OTA functionality. No need for a truck roll, and while >> the available bandwidth deep in these mountains in Mexico is meager, >> it is now enough for most purposes. >>=20 >> = https://blog.nafiux.com/posts/cnpilot_r190w_openwrt_bufferbloat_fqcodel_ca= ke/ >=20 > In looking over that blog entry again today I know I overfocus on the > "bufferbloat" result, and the fact that he could indeed run a > speedtest while maintaining a good videoconfernce, which I really wish > more folk tested for. However it fails multiple checkboxes in the test > results, which others might be more inclined to look at. >=20 > 4k video streaming: Failed. However this network is MORE than capable > of 1024p streaming. 4k is difficult to discern except on large, > expensive televisions. It was not all that long ago that 1024p was > considered good enough, and IMHO, still is. [SM] With my aging eyes I agree "full HD" aka 1920 by 1080 still = looks plenty fine to me, even on our biggest screen (43").However the = older I get the less picky I get, even SD resolution will not keep me = from watching things if the content is compelling ;) -> 4K streaming is reported as failure due to insufficient = download capacity. > Videoconferencing: Failed. Well, the test is wrong, probably having > too low a bar for the upload as a cutoff. Videoconferencing needs oh, > 500kb/sec to work decently, and only facetime tends to try for 4k. > Having comprehensible voice, with a few video artifacts is ok, > incomprehensible voice, is not. [SM] Videoconferencing reported as failure due to insufficient = upload capacity, I am sure though that 10.6/3.46 Mbps will be enough for = decent video conferencing for a single seat. >=20 > Low Latency gaming: Failed. The waveform test conflates two things > that it shouldn't - the effects of bufferbloat (none, in this case), > and the physical distance to the most local server, which was 70ms, > where the cutoff is 50ms in this test. [SM] the cutoff is reported as "95th Percentile Latency < 40 ms" = which is indeed harsh.=20 Here is the expanded list of the grading rules: We use the following criteria to determine if a particular service will = work on your Internet connection. Of course, these criteria are far from = perfect, but we think they=E2=80=99re a good general guideline. =E2=80=A2 Web Browsing: =E2=80=A2 Download speed > 2 Mbps =E2=80=A2 Upload speed > 100 Kbps =E2=80=A2 Latency < 500 ms =E2=80=A2 Audio Calls: =E2=80=A2 Download speed > 100 Kbps =E2=80=A2 Upload speed > 100 Kbps =E2=80=A2 95th Percentile Latency < 400 ms =E2=80=A2 4K Video Streaming: =E2=80=A2 Download speed > 25 Mbps =E2=80=A2 Video Conferencing: =E2=80=A2 Download speed > 10 Mbps =E2=80=A2 Upload speed > 5 Mbps =E2=80=A2 95th Percentile Latency < 400 ms =E2=80=A2 Low Latency Gaming: =E2=80=A2 Download speed > 10 Mbps =E2=80=A2 Upload speed > 3 Mbps =E2=80=A2 95th Percentile Latency < 40 ms > I wish that the city-dwellers of BEAD so in love with fiber would > insert 70ms of rural delay into all their testing. [SM] In fiber 70ms RTT is good for 70 *100 =3D 7000 Km, that is = a lot of latency, sure there are other delays other than propagation = delay, but I wish we could wire up more rural ares with better = topologies that avoid 7000 Km detours... here however the issue might = well be more cloudflare sparsity in MX, they only mention Maxico City = and Queretaro... Maxico is quite large, but even then 70ms indicates = clear potential. BUT I also think that we should be able to build an internet = infrastructure that can cope decently with such delays! > If someone would go > to all these enormous conferences about BEAD, and do that, the need > for cdns and uIXPs would become dramatically apparent in what they are > building out. >=20 > https://blog.cloudflare.com/tag/latency/ >=20 >>=20 >> I have no idea how many of this model routers were sold or are still >> deployed (?), but the modest up front cost of this sort of = development >> dwarves that of deployment. Ongoing maintenance is a problem, but at >> least they are in a position now to rapidly respond to CVEs and other >> problems when they happen, having "seized control of the methods of >> computation" again. >>=20 >> OpenWrt is known to run on 1700 different models, already, (with easy >> ports to obscure ones like this box) - going back over a decade in >> some cases. >>=20 >> Another favorite story of mine was the ISP in New Zealand that >> deployed LibreQos and had all their support calls (from gamers and >> videoconferencers) cease overnight. The support tech, formerly = drowned >> in angst from the users, set to work automating an reflashing 600 old >> agw routers they had "retired" on the shelf, and then distributing >> them to customers as extenders because the wifi finally worked right >> with the fq_codel stuff now in that release. >>=20 >> I feel like I am tooting my own horn here a bit too much, but solving >> the right problems like MTTR, MTBF, bufferbloat, and taking back >> control of your software infrastructure while being able to customize >> it for purpose, and turning what otherwise would be ewaste into >> something that will last a decade more, is my inner "green", my inner >> stewart brand. >>=20 >> Compare that to so many others being marketed to, to death, that buy >> the latest (and often inferior) thing, every few months, perpetually >> fooled by promises that do not pay off in the field, and often, = really >> lousy MTBF. Good embedded software takes many years to develop, say, >> oh, 7, while the hardware cycle is closer to 2, nowadays, and = requires >> many eyeballs to fully debug and get to lots of 9s of reliability. >>=20 >> Back when I was even more radical about good, open, embedded, = software >> than now, I used to say: "Friends don't let friends run factory >> firmware.". I do wish somehow the long term maintence costs of >> hardware with a decade plus service lifetime would be adaquately >> covered. Insurance? by law? a formal setaside from the purchase = price? >> Otherwise we run the risk of turning the world's internet into a = giant >> toxic waste dump that will require Superfund levels of cleanup, one >> day, and ever more contributions to trillions of dollars of fraud, = and >> persistent actors having first broken down the front door, = perpetually >> on the inside, wreaking more havoc. Somehow preventing that mess, up >> front, seems cheaper. >>=20 >> Take this string of vulns: >> https://www.google.com/search?q=3Dcisco+router+vulnerability >>=20 >> (try that search string with *any* manufacturer - juniper, netgear, = tplink, >>=20 >> There is a new vuln going around about some very old software in a >> cisco mx series which is ancient and yet 100k+ are vulnerable - (I >> worked on this while at montavista in the early 00s!) - abandonware, >> toxic waste... >>=20 >> Anyway, in Mexico at least, 200+ routers are going to be a lot = better, >> through the actions of all that contribute to linux, openwrt, and one >> smart and caring engineer. >>=20 >> -- >> Oct 30: = https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Oct 30: = https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain