From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A579F3B2A4 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 16:22:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from oxusgaltgw06.schlund.de ([10.72.72.52]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus003 [172.19.143.1]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MHmnb-1rBPI03kpJ-003etw for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 22:22:29 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 16:22:29 -0500 (EST) From: Tanya Weiman To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make?= =?UTF-8?Q?_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= Message-ID: <1431714082.488235.1702848149778@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: References: <02cc2879-ef99-4388-bc1e-335a4aaff6aa@gmail.com> <18A40E71-F636-41A9-A8A7-0F4F69E3C99F@gmx.de> <650s1558-6310-063q-s5q2-o782rnnoss29@ynat.uz> <471154o6-no08-67or-p1o2-np919ro26osp@ynat.uz> <05ef1cd50d0e0a681b2cd38b1bdeb0a9@rjmcmahon.com> <4p61qp8r-p1p1-r83r-n283-315548o163po@ynat.uz> <045p54s4-r8p3-o2s7-7qq2-r2p6o28ss7q1@ynat.uz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.6-Rev56 X-Originating-Client: com.openexchange.ox.gui.dhtml X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:3hakooYtWjbSkGp1Opv9r+977ePcWnR97TK5r5ZLW8t2fyh6cX2 iUbriX28ng4WDnBQIn5Du+MeUoVBZ9INhwbtPre3s54z7W/bXuif0Qo/eFaulOpIoOy8pvx WR2F5XUOn1JcALXDxRFe95APEct+/JEkUfK0RmBzno41Lbe12bW4IsF4gfCsKc0GgLEVuU6 kS9n/yZ9ZoprPoRGDPSZA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:9q7X1Y13RxU=;DhjwlWOrPkmkCdka4uvUq40ktZP p7BEvG5c89HUP+7bRNiwFOi2eNlyK8PddUlxrAfqBuYIt/6A0FKAU1HftEhp//lkarYYaOCx1 aPKgXvJIXm5i/ak8O4SXD+8bXuRsz1h0Ms9AiWu7BWIynl8pUmNUbAXNq9eqepoLAOL7FquEP 6nY174QNzlgljhTAHckgTy1pXSS9dz6Q2geq0ee5KlPLbwqkgPaPrLYWdMCieBu91P3RiqAL5 yDel64j6vy5j4rUHQtcrPsAwv66LsL0D9d79vY3Vt6h8yUuLOFj3O4ytLZqr8H/y0NOdsNs7D 09BqX3Enu38e5O4olL5QkxQ89Sj+3leLgwGTlqStyJC+6VSq0yT8M3Lceqo3v7FkgA3fr/hei gqRbozwQ4mCaIM1EoSSAGHLXU8nxaUZdq1t/9M6CG+D3W3t2io4GcUyvlvp0IExvHkPwjWuZi lHe/xwQKBBKETh7FJeutp3jPjI+yfZS4uCdtZfIM1ZHukUh5S9EKNZ2HeOX9bbCVnmrp2lWfw obyGoHoajA4d6WukaJ9y7k2LyBMyvQIDwIWXNQxPukkv6yOpX4QsQE5dVvSmSuh8IeIPlSWiM A3903dKSgBmvD+sHuSn9mWPT0ASowTHynh720f6sLEcm0LVtoFcVYUY5eJdmAumhF++YqWb97 DHggwEon74iTwZi1pjVZWGSY4AUO2hK8O0Ai4W3lqNUg83UlBbxxnZD/vYwP4wWQlhayT5gTL aId+PvXPMoZ0Q3vJM2mB2QH9B8IDCsS7OPZLbjGGCEn3HorKbHB//TKZikYXbh9D9bK3vPX/O yz0QC97+k0XzXeckNc7/mn912IgrfIAMrGXET/5ymur/LJvDHACxzykrVxWlnHDg8dNTTMBAj h64exMvtA2Hj1VAh4it3Z2GgjiGSWqoW2LyOtZtm9MmtEC1mtkLmbtfZQ Subject: Re: [NNagain] [Starlink] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 21:22:30 -0000 =20 =20
I agree Dave! Sometimes I find it difficult to drag myself away from the= dopamine machine aka cell phone (credit for that phrase to Ben at epsilont= heory.com), but I always appreciate it when I do. 
=20
 
=20
-- Tanya :-)
=20
 
=20
=20
On 12/15/2023 5:36 PM EST Dave Taht via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
=20
 
=20
 
=20
On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 2:13=E2=80=AFPM David Bray, PhD via Nnagain
=20 =20
>
=20
=20
This GPT(human)bot was responding to the engineered prompt: >>wh= y do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services?
=20
 
=20
As it's Friday, this GPT(human)bot bandwidth has been fully utilized f= or the week. Our servers will be back-on line come Monday.
=20
 
=20
Wishing everyone (human or machine) a wonderful weekend ahead!
=20
=20
 
=20
Sometimes the best way to value something is to get away from it for a
=20
while. I recommend everybody log off... maybe take a walk
=20
in the park, see some friends, make some music, visit a library, play
=20
golf, go fishing, spend time with your loved ones, fire up a card
=20
game...
=20
 
=20
stop with the technology for a while and re-engage your other senses.
=20
 
=20
The internet will still be here when you get back.
=20
 
=20 =20
 
=20
>
=20
=20
On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 5:10=E2=80=AFPM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
=20
>
=20
=20
I don't disagree with anything that you say below, but the discussion= was on the
=20
topic of starlink vs fiber, with the person I was responding to claim= ing that we
=20
needed to have women in charge of the Internet companies because of t= elehealth
=20
as well.
=20
 
=20
I'm a remote worker and VERY aware of how limiting video calls are co= mpared to
=20
in-person meetings.
=20
 
=20
David Lang
=20
 
=20
On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, David Bray, PhD wrote:
=20
 
=20
=20
There=E2=80=99s good evidence that physical health can be done over = LEO as long as
=20
it isn=E2=80=99t low latency dependent. Of course our illustrious li= stserv founder
=20
Dave Taht will be quick to point out high latency is also found via
=20
ground-based connections too.
=20
 
=20
That said, there is still a lot of research debate on whether mental= health
=20
services can be delivered effectively over video in general - regard= less of
=20
LEO or not. The concern is two fold:
=20
 
=20
* video is suboptimal to detect tiny tells and other signatures of a
=20
patient developing a relationship with a health provider
=20
 
=20
* 2D video actually is worse for brainstorming and creative ideation= . One
=20
might say so what relative to delivering healthcare, except the evid= ence
=20
showing that video is worse for brainstorming indicates there=E2=80= =99s actually a
=20
continual subconscious confusion when folks do video calls prompted = by the
=20
body trying to discern if the one or more disembodied heads are frie= nd or
=20
foe. Since we cannot see a person=E2=80=99s hands and body movements= we don=E2=80=99t know
=20
if they=E2=80=99re coming to attack us or not.
=20
 
=20
So future generations may look back and decide that with video calls= we
=20
were literally messing with our brains=E2=80=99 own natural biologic= al processes?
=20
 
=20
 
=20
On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 16:42 David Lang via Nnagain <
=20 =20
 
=20
=20
why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services?
=20
 
=20
I've used it personally.
=20
 
=20
Even if women use telehealth more than men, that doesn't say that w= omen
=20
have any
=20
particular advantage in moving the bits around that make telehealth
=20
possible.
=20
 
=20
David Lang
=20
 
=20
On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
=20
 
=20
=20
Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth services. = They
=20
=20
are
=20
=20
using broadband to care for our population. They also run most of = the
=20
addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction may = be. So
=20
gender actually matters. Ask them as providers. Telehealth doesn't= work
=20
=20
over
=20
=20
LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats.) Same for distance
=20
=20
learning.
=20
>
=20
>
=20 =20
>
=20
=20
As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities should re= main
=20
=20
in
=20
=20
place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back telehea= lth
=20
=20
access
=20
=20
and affordability will disproportionately affect women, even as a
=20
=20
growing
=20
=20
share of startups emerge to address women=E2=80=99s unique health = needs.
=20
 
=20
While women are more likely than men to visit doctors and consume
=20
=20
healthcare
=20
=20
services in general, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractive to= women.
=20
 
=20
Bob
=20
=20
who exactly do you think is calling for there to be no Internet
=20
access? and what in the world does the sex of individuals have to= do
=20
with shipping bits around?
=20
 
=20
Starlink (and hopefully it's future competitors) provides a way t= o get
=20
Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber to every
=20
house.
=20
 
=20
As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that problem = were
=20
to be faced today, would the right answer be massive public agenc= ies
=20
to build and run miles of wire from massive central power plants?= or
=20
would the right answer be solar + batteries in individual houses = for
=20
the most rural folks, with small modular reactors to power the la= rger
=20
population areas?
=20
 
=20
Just because there was only one way to achieve a goal in the past
=20
doesn't mean that approach is the best thing to do today.
=20
 
=20
David Lang
=20
 
=20
On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
=20
 
=20
=20
Hi All,
=20
 
=20
We're trying to modernize America. LBJ helped do it for electric= ity
=20
decades ago. It's our turn to step up to the plate. Tele-health = and
=20
distance learning requires us to do so. There is so much to foll= ow.
=20
 
=20
A reminder what many women went through before LBJ showed up. I'= m
=20
skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even close to capable. We
=20
=20
=20
=20
probably
=20
>>> need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate us to do= our best work
=20
for
=20
>>> our country and to be an example to the world.
=20
>>>
=20
>>> A Hill Country farm wife had to do her chores even if = she was ill =E2=80=93 no
=20
>>> matter how ill. Because Hill Country women were too po= or to afford
=20
proper
=20
>>> medical care they often suffered perineal tears in chi= ldbirth. During
=20
the
=20
>>> 1930s, the federal government sent physicians to exami= ne a sampling of
=20
>>> Hill Country women. The doctors found that, out of 275= women, 158 had
=20
>>> perineal tears. Many of them, the team of gynecologist= s reported, were
=20
>>> third-degree tears, =E2=80=9Ctears so bad that it is d= ifficult to see how they
=20
>>> stand on their feet.=E2=80=9D But they were standing o= n their feet, and doing
=20
all
=20
>>> the chores that Hill Country wives had always done =E2= =80=93 hauling the
=20
water,
=20
>>> hauling the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helping w= ith the
=20
shearing,
=20
>>> the plowing and the picking.
=20
>>>
=20
>>> Because there was no electricity.
=20
>>>
=20
>>> Bob
=20
>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlin= k wrote:
=20
>>>>
=20
>>>>> Hi Frantisek,
=20
>>>>>
=20
>>>>>
=20
>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsi= k via Nnagain
=20 =20
>>>>>>
=20
>>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, one would like= the advantages of satcom
=20
>>>>>> such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s i= n 10 years time, to
=20
overcome
=20
>>>>>> the 'tangled fiber' problem.
=20
>>>>>>
=20
>>>>>> No, not really. Starlink was about to addr= ess the issue of digital
=20
>>>>>> divide -
=20
>>>>>
=20
>>>>> I beg to differ. Starlink is a commercial ente= rprise with the goal
=20
to
=20
>>>>> make a profit by offering (usable) internet ac= cess essentially
=20
>>>>> everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an = attempt at
=20
specifically
=20
>>>>> reducing the digital divide (were often an imp= ortant factor is not
=20
>>>>> necessarily location but financial means).
=20
>>>>
=20
>>>> Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise with= the goal to make a
=20
>>>> profit by offering (usable) internet" don't dismis= s a company because
=20
>>>> of that. Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) a= ll exist to service
=20
>>>> people who can't use traditional wired infrastruct= ure
=20
>>>>
=20
>>>>>
=20
>>>>>> delivering internet to those 640k location= s, where there is
=20
literally
=20
>>>>>> none today. Fiber will NEVER get there. An= d it will get there, it
=20
will
=20
>>>>>> be like 10 years down the road.
=20
>>>>>
=20
>>>>> This is IHO the wrong approach to take. The go= al needs to be a
=20
>>>>> universal FTTH access network (with the except= ion of extreme
=20
locations,
=20
>>>>> no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivoua= c shelter on Mt.
=20
Whitney).
=20
>>>>> And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, th= is is infrastructure
=20
that
=20
>>>>> will keep on helping for many decades once rol= led-out. However given
=20
>>>>> that time frame one should consider work-aroun= ds for the interim
=20
period.
=20
>>>>> I would have naively thought starlink would qu= alify for that from a
=20
>>>>> technical perspective, but then the FCC docume= nts actually
=20
discussion
=20
>>>>> requirements and how they were or were not met= /promised by starlink
=20
was
=20
>>>>> mostly redacted.
=20
>>>>
=20
>>>> what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how long= a run between
=20
>>>> houses is 'too far'?
=20
>>>>
=20
>>>> we've seen the failure of commercial fiber monopol= ies in cities with
=20
>>>> housing density of several houses per acre (and ev= en where there are
=20
>>>> apartment complexes there as well) because it's no= t profitable enough.
=20
>>>> When you get into areas where it's 'how many acres= per house' the cost
=20
>>>> of running FTTH gets very high. I don't think this= is the majority of
=20
>>>> the population of the US any longer (but I don't k= now for sure), but
=20
>>>> it's very clearly the majority of the area of the = US. And once you get
=20
>>>> out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber t= o every town or
=20
>>>> village becomes a major undertaking.
=20
>>>>
=20
>>>> Is running fiber 30 miles to support a village of = 700 people an
=20
>>>> 'extreme location'? let me introduce you to Vermon= tville MI
=20 =20
>>>> than an hours drive from the state capitol.
=20
>>>>
=20
>>>> David Lang
=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
=20
>>>> Nnagain mailing list
=20 =20 =20
>>>
=20
=20
_______________________________________________
=20
=20
Nnagain mailing list
=20 =20 =20
 
=20
=20
 
=20
=20
=20
 
=20
_______________________________________________
=20
Nnagain mailing list
=20 =20 =20
=20
 
=20
 
=20
 
=20
--
=20
:( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab
=20
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
=20
_______________________________________________
=20
Nnagain mailing list
=20 =20 =20