From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C7B63B29E for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2025 10:22:18 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=panacea42.com; s=s1-ionos; t=1743949338; x=1744554138; i=tanya@panacea42.com; bh=Q6Y6+EAkxh0r7tFh8fGG5jxEej+gCar4+VvqyrJjR9Q=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=GOZxbcEsl/CGf3VvKINJ0JrksDdMpFutCMAsM4i+Zen6y+wlCA6prMP0LZCdxZVS CG0XjK1GHFkaLYVre7s3E2qZK7Shig5kaKL3IOpO2CsY9DEnOozikJ309tHkYa9+t V43NiyVDT4XZIG7Ej5OKEzNfvWEpTNfR1uEZraw/uM0E+1knQQD4k27CiVsEFI5Sk uUNph5Wkmk4ZMOHx5nsGbSxqkwEOA9YjPJXCea3W6qHFe1NAQMwCQDyRe5DZINB6K Bc/6ZsDW8oibBihUixbs1w+tR/QqKWzNNRY4RRAh7NwAHSnaGktgoGZxWHiD+sVhP UMaF1RV/JhfLLEFcUA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 55c96926-9e95-11ee-ae09-1f7a4046a0f6 Received: from open-xchange-core-mw-default-21.open-xchange-core-mw-hazelcast-headless.open-xchange.svc.cluster.local ([10.73.158.75]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus004 [172.19.143.1]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M9FOt-1txryw3cu7-00726w for ; Sun, 06 Apr 2025 16:22:17 +0200 Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 10:22:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Tanya Weiman To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make?= =?UTF-8?Q?_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= Message-ID: <1787707089.2756.1743949337720@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: References: <0C0CF6D1-DBB6-4BE1-B9D2-5FCDFB1B6257@stonescry.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2755_1800207886.1743949337704" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v8.33.58 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:NT7M+WQWqdTKzN7TSny3xqXW7zgaeT/dDyhwL/+bTajuasjivoM t4bRfMUyY7/7GkHCyDHVn4Er4HEv3bXuhu9QzJniBKNH9pFEFpzuubsL5yr4mVZLWjUzLZE Zv3VXnnpxUajARkrHN/I3sl5xeNg9+Nbx+bHWfZfc3piVyjs6m0FyBBbsIPa2uEtMYtRGEY pf864+dA3IBcdFIBj//QQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:qWW8wTQ+J1I=;R6sTNRjOSzB/i/KqPX8NxaNUbva LwnltHRuvE9f4dblMBUjDOn2bRHuZxYeLPJ/BJdjTm6K2u70kNPZNLrsRvn/iGsM10wXSR3nN PmEBmssBysavcjIPI26zrAIRL39VmJUKf08AWQs3nFYWRMMYzwqIhwq7bPrvs9S1LPncrNxwd 7IUIJsufmyLs7BA5Wq1gQyHHQDALe8qiFbE8TE0ePFhTXYg6EVE2B1jjmB1H1EvpZXjlf6TCb bdUNzz2zBLt+vBtWHlLeJP5rrFEiINtBjn5IP2E6B6WMjKhedbRCMDUIndt7iZkSx9+C94cxn M5A1dBk7RilaBKF7W0f+m12QRTjQ6MTSgjTYdURil7lUNOQB164BfyNVelkF4bnIjMC0g0R4M xLG+m2lw52Bv9F6l+eUPf4MA5u9S2pJ0o10g8ZeOEPmivaEZLRH5LAEMorGDN7vu4kciD4l0+ yShgU21Cy46hnqMjxpc5LsAZPE44vK4K99eGzhRXSkRGyzV+WpuVzi/GGGEXhdr49QUl7ySC1 VwCzwktDw/vizhgy7157BiDvmutkFjOc8IkJOIuq/G9rfAz6ac+bc2oeBCvVkEFeE544ESW+N oSDWiw2jhp7wiDm9ObnlqlXdIlh7Rxid2Ox8Ea3PD1IzLNFA5f1gCVoaqpWU0J0csJRzxFEL8 PkuSLLiwnDpAqBMPsrgMxN7dRZTOwMGyPqaj/qTrrqNxlagAF/h3VPKoHs5e7pAOTFUkrTt6G 78Wzo2h7hfFxP6AXRWDml2qM1yYs4NkJJe/97TOEsuCnT1HnJnDv0WSirQ4NchhkQnmuJiKJw Fl+AR+6InvslU68Rtf2kd2xjcjBo5elX2wmSw9XBr6Qr3jPGxZYdsVya+o+hFM07B1boL2f20 BOnxmO3vHYkbwCIh2DZ/0Z9kZxNr0PCIKQNgp6d/pZHpJWk4NXQAqA4lRxNt7BamttC2pysqd 0vENCFJn9sN788K8zQA/kUDc/VjPU4+g200ChUcqUtg61VIfwY6xl7GruG3ztC8mhK5wMkfHu Nofh3vV85x4orbuBw7gk5RVmqu11WCMBohrgrD3K31/DI9SNXrYq2jYeRURLP8KR/LwPQkojb BnUU5XgjfZxwWXg76gusuZ8jPZDEU21vc/L/ZHf21iEnYKtop1UGizyVZ4SNKcLhjRtEkh33R omYWurRtyGMsPmMwmH8pO6NcrB641HSRa1/TrlPpOkB58UMpfBJfg0MLzIAsaXVxu/bN1ik8A 8NI1YACcO7Cj4CI2mX/m4LPNx9Ae5f2HJpOZ2PIIcdQEfZP5DkKjMZ2VRyQDWf2yzVShp/sr0 fquJhAL0CQLAAzithIF7Eid5hZG+RZlcwnBTSEuedErcHw= Subject: Re: [NNagain] Spam filtering X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2025 14:22:18 -0000 ------=_Part_2755_1800207886.1743949337704 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you so much for these links, Frank! =E2=9D=A4=EF=B8=8F =20 > On 04/06/2025 6:23 AM EDT Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain wrote: > =20 > =20 > Thank you very much for this, Daniel. Safe travels, and enjoy your trip. = I hope to do it one day as well, to commemorate Dave (and I need to do a lo= t of other things we were planning to do together, like to attend SpaceX la= unch etc.) > =20 > Here is a reminder of Dave's Amtrak trip, if you want to refresh you memo= ry or missed it back then, in 2023: https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail= /nnagain/2023-October/000286.html > =20 > Dave was heading to Netdev 0x17 https://netdevconf.info/0x17/ in Vancouve= r. His talks and music from the event, if anyone is interested, can be foun= d here: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DD9RGX6QFm5E and https://youtu.be/rWnb54= 3Sdk8?si=3D9LAEGpfBo2M5RX9X&t=3D2599 > =20 > All the best, > =20 >=20 > Frank >=20 > =20 >=20 > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >=20 > =20 >=20 > In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: 1965-2025 >=20 > https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >=20 > =20 >=20 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik >=20 > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=20 >=20 > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 >=20 > Skype: casioa5302ca >=20 > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >=20 >=20 > On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 3:21=E2=80=AFAM Daniel Ezell wrote: >=20 > > Taking the Coast Starlight tonight. Wanted to compare notes with Dave a= bout it. Sad to have missed the opportunity. So this trip is a memorial to = a great guy I never got to meet.=20 > > Daniel Ezell > >=20 > >=20 > > > On Oct 28, 2023, at 3:51=E2=80=AFAM, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain wrote: > > >=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > > > I just can't even. So many garbage ideas out of Brussels as of late. = DSA, DMA, DSM... GDPR in the past, or even that horrible CRA =3D Cyber Resi= lience Act: > > >=20 > > > https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/10/the-eus-proposed-cyber-r= esilience-act-will-damage-the-open-source-ecosystem/ > > > https://blog.nlnetlabs.nl/open-source-software-vs-the-cyber-resilienc= e-act/ > > > =20 > > > Good intentions don't count, bad results do. Most of the evil in this= world was done by people with good intentions and this is not an exception= . > > > =20 > > >=20 > > > All the best, > > > =20 > > >=20 > > > Frank > > >=20 > > > =20 > > >=20 > > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > >=20 > > > =20 > > >=20 > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > >=20 > > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=20 > > >=20 > > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > >=20 > > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > >=20 > > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 1:45=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote: > > >=20 > > > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 4:23=E2=80=AFPM Nathan Simington via Nnagai= n > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > This has gone from mere cost-shifting to protocol takeover. Self-= hosting is essentially dead because you are guaranteed to get filtered by O= utlook and Gmail, which means that there is de facto embrace-and-extend -- = "best viewed in Internet Explorer at 800x600" but for a core standard. > > > >=20 > > > > This is one of those things that could be reversed if there was law > > > > guaranteeing freedom of communications. That really does not seem = to > > > > be the way the world is going, however. > > > >=20 > > > > See: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/ for examp= le. > > > >=20 > > > > I like email (and netnews). You had a copy, the recipients had copi= es, > > > > and pretty much anyone that had the capability of snooping in-betwe= en > > > > had copies. Nobody ever got arround to making starttls mandatory. > > > > Compare this to all the even more centralized, but incompatible cha= t > > > > systems since, multiple ones that have vanished from the web (g+), = and > > > > others that are barely hanging on, like disquis. > > > >=20 > > > > Even with the flight to mastodon and other heavily encrypted home > > > > server technologies, email remains the most common, useful and > > > > malleable public identifier for connecting people to people. I woul= d > > > > like to make it better, for everyone, again. > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 5:48=E2=80=AFPM Hal Murray via Nnagain wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> [Was Amtrack] > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > 2) I could get mad that I figure 80% of this new email list is= vanishing into > > > > >> > spam boxes. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > What of the 10s of thousands of other emails that have come ov= er the years > > > > >> > not just fromhttp://lists.bufferbloat.net but from people tryi= ng honestly to > > > > >> > communicate? > > > > >> > > > > >> There is/was a good discussion of all the good things that netwo= rk geeks have > > > > >> done. > > > > >> > > > > >> How about discussing the things they haven't done? > > > > >> > > > > >> Spam would be pretty high on my list. It's tangled up with (in)= security -- a > > > > >> lot comes from infected systems or phished accounts. > > > > >> > > > > >> The current approach to spam is cost shifting. If you don't pay= for your > > > > >> abuse desk, the crap that you send or phishing sites you host...= , means that > > > > >> the rest of the net has to spend more on defense. > > > > >> > > > > >> Anybody remember Spamford Wallace? He was going to setup a spam= friendly ISP. > > > > >> Nobody would connect to him. I wonder what would happen if a f= ew ISPs that > > > > >> host a lot of abuse had more troubles getting connected to the = net. Would a > > > > >> few well publicized examples be enough to spread the word? > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> High on my list would be dis/mis-information. The business mode= l seems to be > > > > >> to show customers things that will keep them online so you can s= how them more > > > > >> ads. Gues what does that? > > > > >> > > > > >> Is this also cost shifting? It's society as a whole that has to= pay for the > > > > >> disruption caused by bogus information. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> -- > > > > >> These are my opinions. I hate spam. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > >> Nnagain mailing list > > > > >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.n= et > > > > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Nathan Simington > > > > > cell: 305-793-6899 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Nnagain mailing list > > > > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.ne= t > > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > --=20 > > > > Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music= -bof.html > > > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Nnagain mailing list > > > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > >=20 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nnagain mailing list > > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > >=20 > >=20 > _______________________________________________ Nnagain mailing list Nnag= ain@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >=20 ------=_Part_2755_1800207886.1743949337704 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you so much for these links, Frank! =E2=9D=A4=EF=B8=8F
 
On 04/06/2025 6:23 AM EDT Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@list= s.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
 
 
Thank you very much for this, Daniel. Safe travels, and enjoy your tr= ip. I hope to do it one day as well, to commemorate Dave (and I need to do = a lot of other things we were planning to do together, like to attend Space= X launch etc.)
 
Here is a reminder of Dave's Amtrak trip, if you want to refresh you = memory or missed it back then, in 2023: https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/nnagain/2023-October= /000286.html
 
Dave was heading to Netdev 0x17 in Vancouver. His tal= ks and music from the event, if anyone is interested, can be found here:
 
All the best,
 

Fra= nk

&nb= sp;

Fra= ntisek (Frank) Borsik

&nb= sp;

In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: 1965-2025

https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-o= f-dave/

&nb= sp;

https://www.linkedin.com/in/f= rantisekborsik

Sig= nal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 

iMe= ssage, mobile: +420775230885

Sky= pe: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 3:21=E2=80=AFAM Daniel Ezell <dezell@stonescry.com> wrote:
Taking the Coast Starlight tonight. Wanted to compare notes with Dave= about it. Sad to have missed the opportunity. So this trip is a memorial t= o a great guy I never got to meet. 
Daniel Ezell

On Oct 28, 2023, at 3:51=E2=80=AFAM, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain &= lt;nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

I just can't even. So many garbage ideas out of Brussels as of lat= e. DSA, DMA, DSM... GDPR in the past, or even that horrible CRA =3D Cy= ber Resilience Act:=20

 
Good intentions don't count, bad results do. Most of the evil in= this world was done by people with good intentions and this is not an exce= ption.
 

All the best,
 

Frank

 

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

 

https://www.linkedin.c= om/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 1:45=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Nnagain <= ;nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 4:23=E2=80=AFPM Nathan Simington via Nnag= ain
<nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> This has gone from mere cost-shifting to protocol takeover. = Self-hosting is essentially dead because you are guaranteed to get filtered= by Outlook and Gmail, which means that there is de facto embrace-and-exten= d -- "best viewed in Internet Explorer at 800x600" but for a core standard.

This is one of those things that could be reversed if there was l= aw
guaranteeing  freedom of communications. That really does no= t seem to
be the way the world is going, however.

See: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/po= sts/chat-control/ for example.

I like email (and netnews). You had a copy, the recipients had co= pies,
and pretty much anyone that had the capability of snooping in-bet= ween
had copies.  Nobody ever got arround to making starttls mand= atory.
Compare this to all the even more centralized, but incompatible c= hat
systems since, multiple ones that have vanished from the web (g+)= , and
others that are barely hanging on, like disquis.

Even with the flight to mastodon and other heavily encrypted home
server technologies, email remains the most common, useful and
malleable public identifier for connecting people to people. I wo= uld
like to make it better, for everyone, again.


> On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 5:48=E2=80=AFPM Hal Murray via Nnaga= in <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> [Was Amtrack]
>>
>>
>> > 2) I could get mad that I figure 80% of this new em= ail list is vanishing into
>> > spam boxes.
>>
>>
>> > What of the 10s of thousands of other emails that h= ave come over the years
>> > not just from lists.bufferbloat.net but from p= eople trying honestly to
>> > communicate?
>>
>> There is/was a good discussion of all the good things th= at network geeks have
>> done.
>>
>> How about discussing the things they haven't done?
>>
>> Spam would be pretty high on my list.  It's tangled= up with (in)security -- a
>> lot comes from infected systems or phished accounts.
>>
>> The current approach to spam is cost shifting.  If = you don't pay for your
>> abuse desk, the crap that you send or phishing sites you= host..., means that
>> the rest of the net has to spend more on defense.
>>
>> Anybody remember Spamford Wallace?  He was going to= setup a spam friendly ISP.
>>  Nobody would connect to him.  I wonder what w= ould happen if a few ISPs that
>> host a lot of abuse had  more troubles getting conn= ected to the net.  Would a
>> few well publicized examples be enough to spread the wor= d?
>>
>>
>>
>> High on my list would be dis/mis-information.  The = business model seems to be
>> to show customers things that will keep them online so y= ou can show them more
>> ads.  Gues what does that?
>>
>> Is this also cost shifting?  It's society as a whol= e that has to pay for the
>> disruption caused by bogus information.
>>
>>
>> --
>> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinf= o/nnagain
>
>
>
> --
> Nathan Simington
> cell: 305-793-6899
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nn= again



--=20
Oct 30: https://netdevco= nf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nna= gain
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnaga= in
_______________________________________________ Nnagain mailing l= ist Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nn= again
------=_Part_2755_1800207886.1743949337704--