From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from sender4-zs8.zoho.com (sender4-zs8.zoho.com [136.143.188.8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 672773CB37 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2023 10:51:26 -0400 (EDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1696258282; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=mi+EVE8A6t5VXWQ8e51Pu+jvwFzOO/GdpINSOaKewkPNFUDl8vncx15gFLuRcBS9hqSmq6YmtlFPomm3RQ5nPj/pBXs/uv7R9WmqxFWXuy4ir8LJ36+j3psoyyi/4NuFulnUShz/NDoj0ijP4RHWnFLta3MFIB/CvLcRymSls9w= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1696258282; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Date:Date:From:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:Subject:To:To:Message-Id:Reply-To:Cc; bh=FJAvvC0oPva8o93dOuirUU3+KRpX/OGuMMYs6sjaZd8=; b=EQBsG6a1IHeqdgOdolLaPnYQW578MyPsNK05LWVxThEJnhuef7tfkxob+OApk2r+pd+QC9ICP5qZPF24lxgCjKdcjCZKYbvKnOTmZt7C6zgpOLFn4Sx5BOhVV3qYB9iC5CyVautqaQth8k/7zOJYL+2oz6uunQUkERW5K9y0TFU= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=phillywisper.net; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=mjs@phillywisper.net; dmarc=pass header.from= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1696258282; s=mail; d=phillywisper.net; i=mjs@phillywisper.net; h=Date:Date:From:From:To:To:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:Reply-To:Cc; bh=FJAvvC0oPva8o93dOuirUU3+KRpX/OGuMMYs6sjaZd8=; b=YQzifJo6bB6Qnpz94epDQFw86ShofAJV6eXGkr/NfAwNGH/4ntxmLc4vEGWU5jR+ VB0nnfOZbmB8C6u+ywgZYnaAhZ0F6cPoLNrEOUhexZwkeSoCj2/jilPQ8iakqGk5BdS nuWkUGzDWyZMP4US6HMQFFLGX36WhyqGRSd+dqxQ= Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1696258281001727.5419509418043; Mon, 2 Oct 2023 07:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2023 10:51:20 -0400 From: Mark Steckel To: =?UTF-8?Q?=22Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make?= =?UTF-8?Q?_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!=22?= Message-ID: <18af0df4e0b.edb34c95711106.5401229236188491451@phillywisper.net> In-Reply-To: <6753C846-DD37-434B-9A07-8EFE4FEE7AF6@cable.comcast.com> References: <6753C846-DD37-434B-9A07-8EFE4FEE7AF6@cable.comcast.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Importance: Medium User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail Subject: Re: [NNagain] On "Throttling" behaviors X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2023 14:51:26 -0000 Adding to some of the points that Sebastian made that I largely agree with. Some of the big ISPs own or are affiliated with content creation and/or dis= tribution companies. AT&T owns Time-Warner, Comcast owns NBC and produces T= V shows and movies. Some other large ISPs have done deals with content prov= iders to provide the content over their network. These latter deals are a s= ource of revenue of the ISPs and a way for the content owners to juice the = distribution and audience for their content. In both cases it is rational for the ISPs to favor this content over other = content. This can be done by zero tier ratings, throttling, etc. All this is nearly identical to the rail road industry during the 1800's (a= t least in the US). One example: A rail road company became involved with a= coal mining organization. The Rail road company then decided to disfavor a= competing coal mining company by charging more and slowing traffic. There = are many examples of this from the rail roads in the 1800's. Everyone was a= gainst this except for the companies that profited from it. Laws and regula= tions were created to force the rails roads to be "common carriers" (as def= ined in the US). [Apparently the term "common carrier" has a different mean= ing in Europe.] It is reasonable to expect that large corporate ISPs will act in their self= interest, and in ways that harm the public.=20 While there are numerous issues around NN, the core of it starts with wheth= er the public and companies that use the Internet are entitled to transpare= nt, fair and and equal access to the Internet. It is not about whether thin= gs like VOIP traffic is prioritized, that is a distraction IMO. It's about = whether an ISP can favor traffic to their benefit in ways that hurts consum= ers and other businesses.=20 The experience with the rail road industry (at least in the US) provides a = clear example of the abuses that occur when a company owns a choke point an= d decides they will exploit it.=20 And finally, a few years before bittorrent brought a lot of these issues to= the foreground Michael Powell (son of Colin Powell) was the chair of the F= CC (appointed by pres Clinton). The cable companies had started providing I= nternet service over their cables during the 90's and had started looking a= t providing phone service. The Internet started with the traditional phone = companies which were regulated under Title II. The cable companies did not = want to be similarly regulated so Powell got the FCC to declare that Intern= et was an "informational service" which put it in a separate category which= did not fall under Title II. The gist of this is Title II concerns about t= he Internet started well before bittorrent and bufferbloat entered the pict= ure. ---- On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 09:43:40 -0400 Livingood, Jason via Nnagain wrote= --- > From: Nnagain nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Patric= k Maupin via Nnagain nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> >=20 > > If there are no would-be bad actors, no regulation is needed.=C2=A0 Bu= t if there are would-be bad actors, then they will attempt to be instrument= al in shaping any new regulations, and many of the presumed would-be > bad actors have time, money, and histories of securing significant face= time with regulatory agencies such as the FCC. >=20 > Often the =E2=80=98bad actor=E2=80=99 is really just a =E2=80=98dumb act= or=E2=80=99 that did something without thinking it through fully or underst= anding root causes, secondary effects of a network change, etc. In our indu= stry (writ large) > it seems like 99% of the negative stuff can be ascribed to mistakes/lac= k of foresight/incorrect root cause analysis/etc and 1% is due to some =E2= =80=98evil genius plan=E2=80=99. ;-) >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >=20