From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from sender4-zs8.zoho.com (sender4-zs8.zoho.com [136.143.188.8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B865E3B29D for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2023 17:34:06 -0400 (EDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1696714444; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=ReFyOcfrO1RqhO4QiqOlOpey2FWEt+P7ZX6NVIzeefwYpGcV7RGl8X2MJdwigeNnujftzLYd4wEnNsMvJvmufJ3r+9UJCN/pok/Deb11zmJZdybqtW9dgBOjBmd2GolbYhJNHHB84KzJmGvvqPhGZPTwqSCR6uRez9LJF8beh50= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1696714444; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Cc:Date:Date:From:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:Subject:To:To:Message-Id:Reply-To; bh=Xh1X+u6YLVgxej/Rinat4HM4QXSC+ZkdGpZgevtSM3o=; b=UhK9/RiqJ07CI7xhhZZmasqfaujJRaCQQppzwkrRPCddqoWFy2u66ZxB74AQU7zMxC7BsRJadhsvL2SCGmLPN5JnVdvmoGB8tlzjnUJbcYnEmwfx5ZMNTxnfWwwmXI8VYDoskW75eazsw4m/fdTy97/9Xt8DpJV27FM3mTNqsBs= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=phillywisper.net; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=mjs@phillywisper.net; dmarc=pass header.from= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1696714444; s=mail; d=phillywisper.net; i=mjs@phillywisper.net; h=Date:Date:From:From:To:To:Cc:Cc:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:Reply-To; bh=Xh1X+u6YLVgxej/Rinat4HM4QXSC+ZkdGpZgevtSM3o=; b=TW9pWaTVFKRAZhYCIg5zpI7rsUTdH7uGA1amSJ8xGFaPVKbMRF2J1bb0CYM9cIqQ +KAifgKLDq/HKwZ5J7ju7z3u9w9cG1WNPDVw2O2LJgZP+7filGDx+pQbFyEE/UhbQEy PQdtZjITMuewjTehl2mx/3r4Z67Sk8fCsg3zkyfY= Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1696714443382958.6636242648365; Sat, 7 Oct 2023 14:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2023 17:34:03 -0400 From: Mark Steckel To: =?UTF-8?Q?=22Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make?= =?UTF-8?Q?_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!=22?= Message-ID: <18b0c0fca5a.df21b356967361.3801960253537018542@phillywisper.net> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Importance: Medium User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail Subject: Re: [NNagain] The non-death of DSL X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2023 21:34:06 -0000 My understanding, though I am not 100% certain, is that the baby bells lobb= ied to have the CLEC equal access provisions revoked/gutted. Before this, t= he telephone companies were required to provide access to the "last mile" o= f the copper lines and the switches at wholesale costs. Once the equal acce= ss provisions were removed, the telephone companies started charging the sm= all phone and DSL providers close to the retail price for access. The CLEC = DSL providers could not stay in business when they charged a customer $35 /= month for Internet service while the telephone company charged the DSL ISP= $35 / month for access.=20 ---- On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 17:22:10 -0400 Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote ---= =20 > I have a lot to unpack from this: >=20 > https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-397257A1.pdf >=20 > the first two on my mind from 2005 are: "FCC adopted its first open > internet policy" and "Competitiveness" As best as I recall, (and > please correct me), this led essentially to the departure of all the > 3rd party DSL providers from the field. I had found something > referencing this interpretation that I cannot find right now, but I do > clearly remember all the DSL services you could buy from in the early > 00s, and how few you can buy from now. Obviously there are many other > possible root causes. >=20 > DSL continued to get better and evolve, but it definately suffers from > many reports of degraded copper quality, but does an estimate exist > for how much working DSL is left? >=20 > Q0) How much DSL is in the EU? > Q1) How much DSL is left in the USA? > Q2) What form is it? (VDSL, etc?) >=20 > Did competition in DSL vanish because of or not of an FCC related order? >=20 > --=20 > Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.= html > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >=20