From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 512823B29D for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 13:09:00 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1699985338; x=1700590138; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=WNBZeRRVEiZHZG9bnSWw8UA8u7vEwV8oDtFewUZkcsE=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References: To; b=NzFNBjw63Q/nUuQYmlrRn0dlfP/K75GBF3DremMcCrHKZW3dtGnRTVc7F331bDAc a9lE+WZT3txRngiqwxCU1s5yZbNS3q5E/MjlRhXDj3nXZhZdVmXf731yz9cojz2r6 cduVwNtXYtIceuqqLAWnvDOaNPZ1+xibWAhxUZkJFzTboNoDa6ORluSZwFYPq4x6B OvC7vRMKQrH5M4OTECaElzFgQWERToIOF/9dLbZyKqGQam0nsESS2gqDafxFxCxwP MKbonX9DmDqkx1YHh3XatyeKdf3Tx3T7o2xEj8w5IbF7qM2r6HwEoHOakNm8EPDj6 DR+vvm3XNxB96SMZqA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([208.115.85.102]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mj8mb-1rYQVb07IT-00f7IY; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 19:08:58 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.4\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 13:08:56 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <19251772-BCFE-40D8-9CB6-E91A1B3FA1C8@gmx.de> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.4) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:sZVIXMr12yle+kCvDEMTiN7EjXrBQHWuONL2Us/7kUMtlYv3Sra wDWKOMmtgX1v228/FA+t8OsjeHdce+pgi2l2+RDUsxuAu/nIMMrYT1RGGB3+CfIfkwjlO+z NwYrq/YYTBN/1m0Tfd1nOOiADPX3S15XBk74z3mZE2FpHsfkFR8IRWsUYznURFHqSglx0ps OPjXnuCO8x8qThHcqLXog== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:Vy3h4gKwDq8=;XvLoxaeDhULtSnql/atmWIaq8Ks qKDRxOnmfWLuRkJigQSbDqLQB5sB6pMvpUWnbyNj2+iUAWCDLXpglk7Wm0ipd6b0E5gSv43EB 8S7ehLTpHzzCN6OoJQTT4tU4rBlwCt0ib9E6kxtXWV1A1r6znP/sXsL7v2fX+O7tRvjPFTh7U UAJiLAY/KXWQsVR+609Ddior2GnOyn2U6zgxqlmseghU+Uuk2e5Ae+v0qMW+/mctCGGVPnEFm vFgxMOahkPDkn7Mjvo2E2qLBx3Es5fzpXOUwLkIbhjv5qmRvZodYiOgXCIFWG5kM88A3Uf8oU JvtG7tE9AJSwcqr35dLKrn7etEexSESCqeb8rD2KGzZWCiJC7kYmBqW4ZsjHk3OVZMsUmoElp 5xkJPYrdiYQne5+2vK/SRDGiy2ioxROI9VMPTYTEBtorrh5UpLoIMqD4zhdIHzeFgNhwpWE3t YeJ3gdmoehr95s74/8eE6JRualQrwQFfGxypFDEMxYrR8JL2iuwhNMxZPv6TXUbtI7KHGcmwa ypbliRbwY/0eEIDm7gV9z2YMCHIemtgL9Azxn1W+WKEwgR8U9svNIjBCtCDxFT72c231pZx0h i59BPD7Nglkb77HGr0YlJIL2iH0OCghfKOaUhhKt3/N76orddqec+ozRTwmpwTVwpFMYrFNCF A3XZMeFwPzT82U10dRozS0zo260gnRmkqbmAFrGNYpsOAgZtHnGqLLsdgIpBWIv38Ju3v9mkz tlAazsXaH9EYU7aqoa5MYXdOKgjXMdnKnYFvJaOvXg/YHJxnX86H/Y4hXJbAgrCD7Qsj5zmRj 2OqU3ynqDGLHkwp2+p+JdEarTSslyQpdfukAdPbSX0+E6nrZHLDZEDiakhTfEFfDs4HyWqKBp 2jNVGoErruVJF+rsWgXKVxmtP+tBFzr2s9U5qwV0Xa3NQrkKl8CK+2e3yLCF2t2SBv9XE7wcS MqL1PhKpVvezbfiU7tnxi2byan8= Subject: Re: [NNagain] FCC NOI due dec 1 on broadband speed standards X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 18:09:00 -0000 Hi Jeremy, > On Nov 14, 2023, at 12:58, Jeremy Austin via Nnagain = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 6:46=E2=80=AFAM Livingood, Jason via Nnagain = wrote: > On the subject of how much bandwidth does one household need, here's a = fun stat for you. >=20 > =20 >=20 > At the IETF=E2=80=99s 118th meeting last week (Nov 4 =E2=80=93 10, = 2023), there were over 1,000 engineers in attendance. At peak there were = 870 devices connected to the WiFi network. Peak bandwidth usage: >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Downstream peak ~750 Mbps > =E2=80=A2 Upstream ~250 Mbps >=20 > How was this calculated? That's an unusually high ratio of up to down, = so my suspicion is that they aren't time correlated; they're also not = /normal/ or /evening/ peaks, I'm expecting. [SM] Given that this is from a conference network, I think it is = expected that the pattern does not match typical end-user traffic, no? >=20 > There's a big difference between individual peaks of upload and = aggregate peaks of upload; most people aren't streaming high symmetric = bandwidth simultaneously. [SM] Which is good, at current rates of over-subscription (or = under-provisioning for the glass half empty folks) such a shift in usage = behavior likely would not result in happiness all around? > Consequently a peak busy hour online load, I'm finding, is still much = more like 8:1 over all users (idle and active), in Preseem's data set. [SM] But this is end users that have been trained over decades = to operate on heavily asymmetric links and that adjusted their usage = patterns to match the "possible" while we might expect the network = experts at IETF to have different expectations? (Then again these folks = likely also are users of normal home internet links). >=20 > In addition to speed tests being, like democracy, the worst form of = government except for all the others that have been tried, it would be = instructive both for end users and ISPs to choose, agree on and = understand specific percentiles of expected performance at idle and at = peak busy hour. [SM] That will not be easy to achieve. > Has anyone solved the math problem of distinguishing (from outside) a = constraint in supply from a reduction in demand? [SM] Keep in mind that the former can cause the latter, if = connectivity/responsiveness is too bad, people might shift to do other = things there y reducing the measurable load, but not the conceptual = demand (as they might prefer a workable internet access). Regards Sebastian >=20 > Jeremy >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain