From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bosmailout10.eigbox.net (bosmailout10.eigbox.net [66.96.189.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B27AC3CB37 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 12:40:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from bosmailscan02.eigbox.net ([10.20.15.2]) by bosmailout10.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1r3gLg-0000BD-2r for nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 12:40:16 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alum.mit.edu; s=dkim; h=Sender:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date: Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Cc:To:From:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=dOJ6OEXjJ3s68bjB1446ycLkyin5uAEZrc7VkM5QpX4=; b=Y7ZuO3tFD4jZ6Sf/39AzE1I5KS +MftIupQGSnqEBVxJkVuGae/Pe7EQHN2gNT0fGftmgiKcFAAb1ceFa5B5SOjpvn6U+1Nc44fLcALY BnCo/1oBAUQHb4arNDi809Au68gfqWQST5dLjIb82HYl7AIJTJgoHsmW4C7xmxcMY9U3iXU5pMUMG iIQ/85qY3pKg24z0XfZZAQ0aDsXM0CKW60/0yQMWFuPT198MGIH/HT5KhcksFhNU4TpR8jsI73bkI zOXjyrrIG676ZDg6vmPH9ejIFwQUUhf7Zn/ixf7beOOOpY9T9CZMHrGJqpKxqN7/LZ+18axA9BTcD u7+FqJMQ==; Received: from [10.115.3.32] (helo=bosimpout12) by bosmailscan02.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1r3gLf-0006TX-Qt for nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 12:40:15 -0500 Received: from bosauthsmtp17.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.20.18.17]) by bosimpout12 with id B5gC2B0030N5uqq015gFUB; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 12:40:15 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=dOg9ZNRb c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=f4kFLigMKr8AH7rIJ//qJA==:117 a=tKttg/DTfI8zZz0UFxdR5w==:17 a=X0lo_nVYqhSgko1G:21 a=BNY50KLci1gA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=kurRqvosAAAA:8 a=stUoZZAxAAAA:8 a=gyc3aJ3VoytMtrBICYkA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=ZVm05BDHbaIA:10 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=MdCkR4NLAuoeZwZViH0A:9 a=hSuo8ud2o8lseYan:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=kbxRQ_lfPIoQnHsAj2-A:22 a=aZQT5WOZ37-KrSEoipGg:22 a=ihnO7ynG1PjbAwmEH3V-:22 Received: from c-73-158-253-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([73.158.253.41]:56517 helo=SRA6) by bosauthsmtp17.eigbox.net with esmtpa (Exim) id 1r3gLb-0000gN-Kn; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 12:40:12 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Dick Roy" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?'Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?pects_heard_this_time!'?= References: <6318C91C-A664-464E-8A9E-4C2A0FFD9C05@comcast.com> <4154C0D8-EF61-4483-97F9-7CDE82CD803D@gmx.de> <35F467F6DA3F419FA78DA6BBB236030D@SRA6> <02d9d652-d88c-4991-a933-deda9a19684d@gih.com> In-Reply-To: <02d9d652-d88c-4991-a933-deda9a19684d@gih.com> Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 09:40:08 -0800 Organization: SRA Message-ID: <19658A6B840C40D6ABFCC826811C9AF9@SRA6> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0DEC_01DA1870.E5762560" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AdoYsUu/UwCfLuu/T0GMyGEzM1NDogAAdsdA x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE X-EN-UserInfo: f809475445fb8041985048e338e1a001:931c98230c6409dcc37fa7e93b490c27 X-EN-AuthUser: dickroy@intellicommunications.com Sender: "Dick Roy" X-EN-OrigIP: 73.158.253.41 X-EN-OrigHost: c-73-158-253-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 17:40:16 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0DEC_01DA1870.E5762560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf = Of Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond via Nnagain Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2023 9:21 AM To: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net Cc: Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble =20 Hello all, I have watched this discussion flourish but don't quite understand the issues with 3G, 4G/LTE and 5G which you are relating here. It seems to me more a problem of the carrier you are using than the technology itself as I have been in plenty of locations in the world = with blazingly fast LTE and now 5G. [RR] If you have a concrete definition of =935G=94, I=92d love to hear = it. Here in the US, 5G is nothing more than hype at present, which is exactly why = the carriers are =93giving it away for free=94. It=92s really hard to sell =93vaporware=94 to a discerning public. Just look at the class action = lawsuit filed by Koreans against all the major Korean carriers for false = advertising on their =935G=94 rollouts! =20 And then, what does this have to do with Network Neutrality?=20 [RR] Yes, we digressed on this thread :-):-):-) Excuse my confusion but I just cannot put 2 and 2 together. [RR] It=92s because of the units problem =85 hard to =93add apples and = oranges=94 as we say! Kindest regards, Olivier On 16/11/2023 18:02, Dick Roy via Nnagain wrote: =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Sebastian Moeller [mailto:moeller0@gmx.de]=20 Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2023 3:02 AM To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=B4s make the technical aspects heard = this time!; Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain; Dick Roy Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble =20 Update, mmmh, Virginia is apparently not only for 'lovers' but also for LTE, along the trip with the silver line to Dulles, my phone reported 4G, aka LTE, = while in downtown DC EDGE-only it was... [RR] You are really lucky! It could have said =935G=94 in which case = you=92d have been down to 19kbps 1980 modem rates! :-):-) Regards Sebsstian =20 On 14 November 2023 13:06:39 CET, Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain wrote: Hi Richard, =20 =20 =20 On Nov 13, 2023, at 16:08, Dick Roy via Nnagain wrote: =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- =20 From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf = Of Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain =20 Sent: Monday, November 13, 2023 6:15 AM =20 To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=B4s make the technical aspects heard = this time! =20 Cc: Sebastian Moeller =20 Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble =20 =20 =20 Hi Jason, =20 =20 =20 =20 On Nov 13, 2023, at 08:54, Livingood, Jason via Nnagain wrote: Would love to spend some time thinking together about what a smart manufacturing system would look like in terms of connectivity, latency, compute availability, anything that occurs to you. I know a guy who does devops for factories, and he has amazing stories -- might be good to = make that connection as well.=20 =20 =20 One of the L4S (low latency, low loss, scalable throughput) demos that = Nokia did at a recent IETF hackathon showed a simulated 5G access network to = do low latency remote control of cranes in an industrial port facility. It seemed like one of their points was that you could remotely operate = cargo container movements with the crane via a remote workforce over a low = delay network connection - even with fairly limited bandwidth (they=92d adjust = the throughput down to just a few hundred kbps). =20 =20 =20 While they did not say much more, I could envision a port operator being able to gain more efficiency by enabling a skilled operator to control cranes at several ports around the world on an as-needed basis (vs. = being based in 1 port and having some downtime or low utilization of their skills/training), even from the comfort of home. =20 =20 =20 =20 I would stop doing business with such ports... there clearly are accidents (or sabotage/jamming) just waiting to happen using wireless connections for such use-cases... Yes, I understand that that is what = Nokia sells, so everything looks like a nail to them, but really "caveat = emptor", just because something can be done does not mean it should be done as well...=20 =20 =20 =20 Regards =20 Sebastian =20 =20 =20 P.S.: Currently in the US for a conference, getting reminded how shitty GSM/LTE can be, heck the conference WiFi (with 25K attendees) is more responsive than GSM... I am sure 5G might be better, but my phone is LTE only... =20 [RR] Welcome to the =93club=94! We in the US have been dealing with = this for over 30 years =85 why you ask???? ... answer =85 CDMA and the IPR behind = it! It was and still is =93all about the money!=94. My phone has 5G and when = download rates plummet to the floor, all I have to do is look at the top of the display, and lo and behold =85 I=92m on 5G!!! If you believe 5G is going = to be better, I have a bridge for you that =93is going to be soooo much = better=94 JJJ =20 =20 All good explanations for what I see, yet this is happening in the capital... (but truth be told, when I bought this phone I did not pay = much attention to which bands it was suited for, it is not impossible that it = at least partly my phone's fault that I am connecting with EDGE speeds, = quite the throw-back to the 2000s ;) but back then EDGE was indeed cutting = edge).=20 =20 About that bridge, I hope this is in NY city? =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Regards =20 Sebastian =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 RR =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Jason =20 =20 _____ =20 =20 =20 Nnagain mailing list =20 Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net =20 https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain =20 =20 _____ =20 =20 =20 Nnagain mailing list =20 Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net =20 https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain =20 =20 _____ =20 =20 =20 Nnagain mailing list =20 Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net =20 https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain =20 =20 _____ =20 =20 =20 Nnagain mailing list =20 Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net =20 https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. _______________________________________________ Nnagain mailing list Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain --=20 Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html ------=_NextPart_000_0DEC_01DA1870.E5762560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

 

From: = Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond via = Nnagain
Sent: Thursday, November = 16, 2023 9:21 AM
To: = nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
Cc: Olivier MJ = Cr=E9pin-Leblond
Subject: Re: [NNagain] = The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble

 

Hello all,

I have watched this discussion flourish but don't quite understand the = issues with 3G, 4G/LTE and 5G which you are relating here.
It seems to me more a problem of the carrier you are using than the = technology itself as I have been in plenty of locations in the world with blazingly = fast LTE and now 5G.

[RR] If you have a concrete = definition of “5G”, I’d love to hear it. =A0Here in the US, 5G is nothing more = than hype at present, which is exactly why the carriers are “giving it away for = free”. =A0It’s really hard to sell “vaporware” to a = discerning public. =A0Just look at the class action lawsuit filed by Koreans against all = the major Korean carriers for false advertising on their “5G” rollouts! = =A0


And then, what does this have to do with Network Neutrality?

[RR] Yes, we digressed on this = thread JJJ<= /i>

Excuse my = confusion but I just cannot put 2 and 2 together.

[RR] It’s because of the units = problem … hard to “add apples and oranges” as we = say!


Kindest regards,

Olivier

On 16/11/2023 18:02, Dick Roy via Nnagain = wrote:

 

 

From: = Sebastian Moeller [mailto:moeller0@gmx.de] =
Sent: Thursday, November = 16, 2023 3:02 AM
To: Network Neutrality is = back! Let=B4s make the technical aspects heard this time!; Sebastian Moeller = via Nnagain; Dick Roy
Subject: Re: [NNagain] = The rise and fall of the 90's telecom = bubble

 

Update, mmmh,

Virginia is apparently not only for 'lovers' but also for LTE, along the = trip with the silver line to Dulles, my phone reported 4G, aka LTE, while in = downtown DC EDGE-only it was...

[RR] You are really lucky!  It could have said “5G” in which case you’d have been down to 19kbps 1980 = modem rates! JJ



Regards
         = Sebsstian

 

On 14 November 2023 13:06:39 CET, Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain = <nnagain@lists.bufferblo= at.net> wrote:

= 
Hi =
Richard,
 
 
 
= 
On Nov 13, 2023, at 16:08, Dick =
Roy via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferblo=
at.net> wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
-----Original =
Message-----
 
From: =
Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-boun=
ces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of Sebastian Moeller via =
Nnagain
 
Sent: =
Monday, November 13, 2023 6:15 =
AM
 
To: =
Network Neutrality is back! Let=B4s make the technical aspects heard =
this time!
 
Cc: =
Sebastian Moeller
 
Subject: =
Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom =
bubble
 
 
 
Hi =
Jason,
 
 
 
 
= 
On Nov 13, 2023, at 08:54, Livingood, Jason =
via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferblo=
at.net> wrote:
= 
Would love to spend some time thinking =
together about what a smart manufacturing system would look like in =
terms of connectivity, latency, compute availability, anything that =
occurs to you. I know a guy who does devops for factories, and he has =
amazing stories -- might be good to make that connection as well. =

 
 
One of =
the L4S (low latency, low loss, scalable throughput) demos that Nokia =
did at a recent IETF hackathon showed a simulated 5G access network to =
do low latency remote control of cranes in an industrial port facility. =
It seemed like one of their points was that you could remotely operate =
cargo container movements with the crane via a remote workforce over a =
low delay network connection - even with fairly limited bandwidth =
(they’d adjust the throughput down to just a few hundred =
kbps).
 
 
 
While =
they did not say much more, I could envision a port operator being able =
to gain more efficiency by enabling a skilled operator to control cranes =
at several ports around the world on an as-needed basis (vs. being based =
in 1 port and having some downtime or low utilization of their =
skills/training), even from the comfort of =
home.
 
 
 
 
      I would stop =
doing business with such ports... there clearly are accidents (or =
sabotage/jamming) just waiting to happen using wireless connections for =
such use-cases... Yes, I understand that that is what Nokia sells, so =
everything looks like a nail to them, but really "caveat =
emptor", just because something can be done does not mean it should =
be done as well... 
 
 
 
Regards
 
      =
Sebastian
 
 
 
P.S.: =
Currently in the US for a conference, getting reminded how shitty GSM/LTE can be, =
heck the conference WiFi (with 25K attendees) is more responsive than =
GSM... I am sure 5G might be better, but my phone is LTE =
only...
 
[RR] =
Welcome to the “club”!  We in the US have been dealing with this for over 30 years … why you =
ask???? ... answer … CDMA and the IPR behind it!  It was and =
still is “all about the money!”. My phone has 5G and when =
download rates plummet to the floor, all I have to do is look at the top =
of the display, and lo and behold … I’m on 5G!!! If you =
believe 5G is going to be better, I have a bridge for you that “is =
going to be soooo much better” =
JJJ
 
 
      All good =
explanations for what I see, yet this is happening in the capital... =
(but truth be told, when I bought this phone I did not pay much =
attention to which bands it was suited for, it is not impossible that it =
at least partly my phone's fault that I am connecting with EDGE speeds, =
quite the throw-back to the 2000s ;) but back then EDGE was indeed =
cutting edge). 
 
About that bridge, I hope this is in NY =
city?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Regards
 
      =
Sebastian
 
 
 
= 
 
 
RR
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
=

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my = brevity.



______________________________________________=
_
Nnagain =
mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.n=
et
https://lists.buf=
ferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain



-- 
Olivier =
MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond, PhD
http://www.gih.com/ocl.html=
------=_NextPart_000_0DEC_01DA1870.E5762560--