From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B07083B2A4 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2023 03:51:17 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1696405871; x=1697010671; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=Bq09jnPjrzICOsNZHdu5IMAFTAnBnfwcFNDQvejly68=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=DEM8pS0rJMmvMGrxajJBcvP6xB/KiSL0PcFn9bGdIXqmVKWCLuahBlbA5v5ShoPfzLIS4yFL3dz CZqPXipuvC2Jg5JGLMSsknb4nJ7SNlApFRG6PDdPzk+3fsptTSnATz+L0peBcSMuYYPo+bStv8DsH qn1g+x2MLWeHD8VXAf6wbZoMiF6fKsB8Vl23X9MgcgokiGpE2ebqzURaMVuwtfp3TwNsQYpIYFlLY ANIgwpF5v7/WkLBROA8tQhRP1mSB2m7yIK1/V+0KPvuXaw6Pah2llrnIrcgv0DgPrftZ8IWPK7Qvk rF+DnBupWl5KhcISPr2YQfr6eOaMZA4jHiqQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M7Jza-1qgDxb1d2C-007nKA; Wed, 04 Oct 2023 09:51:11 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.4\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <18af7d4c568.b73ffaa01244760.8240978906967327872@phillywisper.net> Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2023 09:51:10 +0200 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= , Colin_Higbie Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1E4EE65B-A8A8-4FD1-838E-47D7871352A0@gmx.de> References: <6D7F7242-248B-4FD4-BEDA-EE931B7DFE3C@andyring.com> <0a158308-e0c1-4722-8013-745e3ded232d@app.fastmail.com> <1B7534EB-2FCE-4500-B53D-F1DFEED1DBC7@gmx.de> <18af7d4c568.b73ffaa01244760.8240978906967327872@phillywisper.net> To: Mark Steckel X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.4) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:CYcilqpz+i19oQjxX4vfg53CXuYV1LBTvAMRVGjd6t3Uqq3cTlT hdW2saNG9BrLDqm9wAZ2jkXFq9MR6j3fkL7M7EnyTq/dNVZ/8PULPQpNtKfENjJkkD+stFr EAbhVThSJUrnjfgGBFyBE5WzkVgAt4ql72r+MPvkShImFIP2Awj886hIIePtiIbxTaX3DuX Ryjh5vQe2N58iQgb0ySHg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:9JDB/Fa53xA=;KeXgO8hLdv3HoG9OcJy7HDiu4H8 CDQRJHnqKWAITh1QPmvHU0ZgBaxYaJY+BDLSZ5YInvhP5a5is/4PNEaKt8hfA61FcW1+otFlN 3BTU+uaqSu5Yy0acrn2ycSP7ECod6bePiQwe7J59IrD96fD0Q9AcPhpyqWQDHYbv+Mkaxwdch ZTufuzcR6Ouh1lYfds+qiAloCfu1/UAKE9CH40khmezFAXyFNgrRnABh0I5b4Z5oi5W1j4q9E leGumYFIFsCnFGMqu3BI6CQSZs05v0lcz902NfQUMoml+eh79onkz6GsyfuyvmfwEiL4fwCAx UDHV41fpq4xkes3dGqxAOLFaUMd3jIwfYK4OYe45Wtni9OY+yRWO2tkCYG3zShmxthQR3nXJ1 90e+P9F9kZ/FSMEMxY7jo8reiq5PnJhSzmicpojnoa5qWrzY75NPNUxeTE1yDPAUAU3rgTfeU LZ5ZBmI6VSKLve4Jny8kFujexyIIsmXa1wp4raQ2plZtnbkkxBi+ay4jJYgHa+EiIXc9GEypw lgQEFXHUURqViP7s3BCCZ4pvcO24YpHAtftJX5QlZX3aljjxPmoHp2QqL+hth4GOTvwmWw2F/ JgeWoFMwMACfaXaz9m8Vz4nI4N9HuUYk7NWpCzVj4HSbfaau7o+DwBIsnJ+EHDL/Kq0OQNUgX i/XFfyEiTWR4Ox4EhaezJ8Hrz1oVkLiSN4fOKu5vRakIvD/pN7PYW5HV/Pby9L5vuKi9EiUor Ruhz8DlNFg9xyFOaAN93VeUP/8SAjJwjXj+bmzHCRapzC9eynoXttQf+7S9QkKokvk+2UqkW4 ELfxT13VJ/cucX6P0VOA5KAeLE3EZkly4chDX5XV1vD478IGpEYg9t621Nh0ZnRYS5KDRr4tB PaxzhyfSRxBuX+7GzJlo0FnTeLMN7sb+3mJij9O7r3O0feb2A3SmqmmUDaa+xKb+/FxwQ4hp9 EFYoowskRaGwmuG2DeifZX61o0A= Subject: Re: [NNagain] On "Throttling" behaviors X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2023 07:51:18 -0000 Hi Mark, > On Oct 4, 2023, at 01:17, Mark Steckel wrote: >=20 >=20 > ---- On Tue, 03 Oct 2023 16:26:24 -0400 Colin_Higbie via Nnagain = wrote ---=20 > [snip...] >> There are plenty of good and valid arguments on both sides that = issue, but history shows that in the long run, government interference = in the form of controlling regulations on what business may and may not = do with each other, outside matters of public safety and perhaps = establishing and mandating some measuring standards, is always = destructive to innovation. That in turn hurts consumers in the end.=20 >=20 > I disagree with this on two dimensions: >=20 > 1) There are multiple ways to evalute outcomes and while innovation is = important, it is not the only one to optimize for. What is best for the = public may by necessity limit some forms of innovation. Wall Street has = been "innovating" like crazy over the last 40+ years which has been = extremely good for them, but not so much for the public. >=20 > 2) Antitrust law traditionally focused on the concentration of market = power. Laws and regulations to minimize market consolidation and abuse = of economic choke points is a good thing IMO.=20 >=20 > Over the last 40+ years, the original antitrust approach, thinking and = enforcement switched to "consumer benefit" which focuses primarily on = pricing to purchasers while largely ignoring market consolidation and = power. [SM] This arguably was/is driven by an desire to work-around the = existing regulations; as it turns out "consumer benefit" or "consumer = harm" is hard to measure and even harder to root-cause back to = acquisitions/mergers, so in a way this new focus really was never = intended to reduce market consolidation, but to allow more of it. = Whether one like's it or not, this approach was quite successful (in = enabling more consolidation). > This policy changed also impacted and expanded the range of permitted = company mergers and acquisitions. If AT&T was not allowed to by = Time-Warner, or Comcast to buy NBC, et al, the need to worry about ISPs = self-dealing would be much less of an issue. [SM] Yes, yet even an ISP without its own media section still = can offer paid prioritization for 3rd party content providers (see e.g. = zero-rating of specific audio/video streaming services on mobile = networks of some European carriers). >=20 > An example - The pharmaceutical industry prefers to innovate = treatments over cures. Treatments generate recurring revenue, while = cures generate a one time payment. What is best for the pharmaceutical = industry is not always what is best for the public and human welfare. [SM] Great and scary example.... Regards Sebastian [...]