From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5213E3B29D for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 14:53:22 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1699991597; x=1700596397; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=7VHNtz7axRAwqhooh5HnzHBplY0XesZYG9ggX1B9O1k=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=TyZGVEsgxyRwhQ0N3fDpR0FnFLk2ySSaGD3Il9K8BflT7mpn3+tdIGGfOFbUaj+1 bLeDgZg7txiOFw2aXRGVRFtZ+rXE1gfFI5nunPZm6fAv5RR3Wx6h4vxUvkhMJdvQh 9FwaECuBBezW6+n+iUa/Lq7VIdl0D5ckl/Qa3Ylad6gU/VK1VJ0Dfw3NldCU989VA aVkGRsfHZsjC9U3f0zrOJzI8hIVRiWop9HJLBVHLSvbTxNojmZpG/WUax2N0eS+m4 o8dBp+rLnLv1C/WzjFlgs5eCykfJ5n5V2n4iorqrM0pBLsLHCEv453/xkIo0iLVE2 wRQgkNVcIVyBBVEsGw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([208.115.85.104]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MGQjH-1rARiT41oz-00GtET; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 20:53:17 +0100 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 14:53:11 -0500 From: Sebastian Moeller To: Jack Haverty , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=B4s_mak?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?e_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <96DDD887-4AC2-4F11-9B49-5ED6FC3F5FA2@gmx.de> Message-ID: <1F39BCDB-1AE0-45D4-B622-411478465119@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=----WGPPMH5EBSNTRBG3KUGWK4IYL63DEF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:xD1f44ZgQzSdfCg3ZveHfN4Ebce9WxCBvwy0YiFhsCtEY26F0bD 2EiTo9EaP9+yKMrDLbIrBGPntdxWfeik9hHLaOgnE2C2PBnwnGnw2BrsWKtJSdbRXb/EkHR xEYIcLA1UQNFjAjhreHdkzlkw9o+K3MBRqnYVyjuNDp5nzNBcVy5TB0DMdbiePZid2wchQw Y6Vf7WLR02eXTop/k8hgA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:mneFk/7HcPw=;sZYKTacrrZObGLjMpCUVYM2CvJ/ Jt0Ha+S0kYqbo1QWI+hIkTdHt32cADmgxiX5QehDdoxCy0M/euMkrVwiZ6LggfoG26EN8+nMG TCZ9/OYv3kbzwCx/S2zm1xI7W4Wf3gEiCq+Q7gsq3lttmqngk0ndOnj0Mr68xibYplmw20qf6 e22Dg2U12rVmIFcMwkIfG7BECrjREtN7PVBrYno9X70s1Q6ERhkfDE8wfDt9g9EYn/jYhs9KI Ck82X0zo/OmT8LWG+WnLrRDuIRIumLhJX5/G1yKc/Pq4O/IDqKt8rG7oy9W9bVE3MNiM7AiBm +rL6xVG1A8ft9A+Qd81SI+IPeTmB7sNpuhB8mvGh1pLhHloWM2pWRgTcLbZzQkoxvD9C9o7Bf mc0fOFvIksD5SLwoyxWQHkXysECfw4whCBh4H2glsdH/bHVe2zBvKUnkwwiO0bBLiNv4DerCw PcaY6QTD2ZQu8wpMNnWMIW42QalXkhAijRFuVMKSivOIrQC44CEzAWtp5p1a+NtTNaqFQLP3C jngwg31KNfsJ/WnI+aKRtlcFTUnr0KD3E5VBTHgLQV/uzB1SMX5uiLNiYImAPjmSlVFPAlNfB TiEvRuR8ceXMi3VysaqAXFdvivhSrSAqTMy+KtOK7N/Q0IyzVwxQU8FhnLTFcGWS6oKOnxl2g doyd2uspACZ/qsPnuAp2bqTdGV2D+ROJ4y7chNKJW7RGWmEfz0lz+Wu7Ri85sRhg/5ebLV6cE hpr4YXDEb+ClcBHvIHRPDrf2AAgkGlUyQMTQavo2W7z8kyqKYul46DOUyTSwPkn7lcmikTsmD w4t/3KBI81CH9aF5T2b32VRfp+f1U82SReX5+/BNJOPzCRx2gJDFtodH34rTNRqyq2QDlbGgp UREEMgNunSw1ybbOjP4/vZcbXUvbaItVuFb7UJMYXvH+/9FH2QBVmJSW02dI+8e+IW0Vi7haq 79fo1YRy2952NnfIiO6DzLopSec= Subject: Re: [NNagain] FCC NOI due dec 1 on broadband speed standards X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 19:53:22 -0000 ------WGPPMH5EBSNTRBG3KUGWK4IYL63DEF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jack, My argument is this is not a hard or software problem, but a wetware probl= em, hard to shake off million years of evolution=2E And IIRC during covid, = didn't the IETF do online only meetings? I am not saying video conferencing is doomed, it came a long way in the co= vid years and is 'here to stay', but it will only replace face to face meet= ings for some conditions, is all I am saying=2E=2E=2E=2E On 14 November 2023 14:27:28 GMT-05:00, Jack Haverty w= rote: >In the beginning days of the Arpanet, circa early 1970s, ARPA made a poli= cy decision about use of the Arpanet=2E=C2=A0 First, Arpa Program Managers,= located on the East Coast of the US, were assigned computer accounts on US= C-ISIA, located on the West Coast in LA=2E Thus to do their work, exchangin= g email, editting documents, and such, they had to *use* the Arpanet to con= nect their terminals in Washington to the PDP-10 in California - 3000 miles= away=2E > >Second, ARPA began requiring all of their contractors (researchers at Uni= versities etc=2E) to interact with Arpa using email and FTP=2E If your site= was "on the Arpanet", you had to use the Arpanet=2E=C2=A0 If you wanted yo= ur proposal for next year's research to be funded, you had to submit your p= roposal using the net=2E > >This policy caused a profound attention, by everyone involved, to making = the Arpanet work and be useful as a collaboration tool=2E > >JCR Licklider (aka Lick) was my advisor at MIT, and then my boss when I j= oined the Research Staff=2E =C2=A0 Lick had been at ARPA for a while, promo= ting his vision of a "Galactic Network" that resulted in the Arpanet as a f= irst step=2E=C2=A0 At MIT, Lick still had need for lots of interactions wit= h others=2E=C2=A0=C2=A0 My assignment was to build and operate the email sy= stem for Lick's group at MIT on our own PDP-10=2E Lick had a terminal in hi= s office and was online a lot=2E=C2=A0=C2=A0 If email didn't work, I heard = about it=2E=C2=A0=C2=A0 If the Arpanet didn't work, BBN heard about it=2E > >This pressure was part of Arpa policy=2E=C2=A0=C2=A0 Sometimes it's refer= red to as "eating your own dog food" -- i=2Ee=2E, making sure your "dog" wi= ll get the same kind of nutrition you enjoy=2E=C2=A0=C2=A0 IMHO, that press= ure policy was important, perhaps crucial, to the success of the Arpanet=2E > >In the 70s, meetings still occurred, but a lot of progress was made throu= gh the use of the Arpanet=2E=C2=A0=C2=A0 You can only do so much with email= and file interactions=2E=C2=A0 Today, the possibilities for far richer int= eractions are much more prevalent=2E=C2=A0=C2=A0 But IMHO they are held bac= k, possibly because no one is feeling the pressure to "make it work"=2E Gig= abit throughputs are common, but why does my video and audio still break up= =2E=2E=2E? > >It's important to have face-to-face meetings, but perhaps if the IETF sch= eduled a future meeting to be online only, whatever needs to happen to make= it work would happen?=C2=A0 Perhaps=2E=2E=2E > >Even a "game" might drive progress=2E=C2=A0 At Interop '92, we resurrecte= d the old "MazeWars" game using computers scattered across the show exhibit= halls=2E=C2=A0 The engineers in the control room above the floor felt the = pressure to make sure the Game continued to run=2E=C2=A0 At the time, the I= nternet itself was too slow for enjoyable gameplay at any distance=2E=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Will the Internet 30 years later work? > >Or perhaps the IETF, or ISOC, or someone could take on a highly visible d= emo involving non-techie end users=2E=C2=A0=C2=A0 An online meeting of the = UN General Assembly?=C2=A0=C2=A0 Or some government bodies - US Congress, B= ritish Parliament, etc=2E > >Such an event would surface the issues, both technical and policy, to the= engineers, corporations, policy-makers, and others who might have the abil= ity and interest to "make it work"=2E > >Jack > > >On 11/14/23 10:10, Sebastian Moeller wrote: >> Hi Jack, >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Nov 14, 2023, at 13:02, Jack Haverty via Nnagain wrote: >>>=20 >>> If video conferencing worked well enough, they would not have to all g= et together in one place and would instead hold IETF meetings online =2E=2E= =2E? >> [SM] Turns out that humans are social creatures, and some things work = better face-to-face and in the hallway (and if that is only building trust = and sympathy) than over any remote technology=2E >>=20 >>=20 >>> Did anyone measure latency? Does anyone measure throughput of "usefu= l" traffic - e=2Eg=2E, excluding video/audio data that didn't arrive in tim= e to be actually used on the screen or speaker? >> [SM] Utility is in the eye of the beholder, no? >>=20 >>=20 >>> Jack Haverty >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 11/14/23 09:25, Vint Cerf via Nnagain wrote: >>>> if they had not been all together they would have been consuming tons= of video capacity doing video conference calls=2E=2E=2E=2E >>>>=20 >>>> :-)) >>>> v >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 10:46=E2=80=AFAM Livingood, Jason via Nnagain= wrote: >>>> On the subject of how much bandwidth does one household need, here's = a fun stat for you=2E >>>>=20 >>>> At the IETF=E2=80=99s 118th meeting last week (Nov 4 =E2=80=93 10, = 2023), there were over 1,000 engineers in attendance=2E At peak there were = 870 devices connected to the WiFi network=2E Peak bandwidth usage: >>>>=20 >>>> =E2=80=A2 Downstream peak ~750 Mbps >>>> =E2=80=A2 Upstream ~250 Mbps >>>> From my pre-meeting Twitter poll (https://twitter=2Ecom/jlivingood= /status/1720060429311901873): >>>>=20 >>>> >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>> Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: >>>> Vint Cerf >>>> Google, LLC >>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor >>>> Reston, VA 20190 >>>> +1 (571) 213 1346 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> until further notice >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>>=20 >>>> Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nnagain mailing list >>> Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E ------WGPPMH5EBSNTRBG3KUGWK4IYL63DEF Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jack,

My argument is this is not a har= d or software problem, but a wetware problem, hard to shake off million yea= rs of evolution=2E And IIRC during covid, didn't the IETF do online only me= etings?

I am not saying video conferencing is doomed, it came a long= way in the covid years and is 'here to stay', but it will only replace fac= e to face meetings for some conditions, is all I am saying=2E=2E=2E=2E

On 14 November 2023 1= 4:27:28 GMT-05:00, Jack Haverty <jack@3kitty=2Eorg> wrote:
In the beginning days of the Arpanet, circa early 1970s, ARPA made a policy decision about use of the Arpanet=2E  First, Arpa Program Managers, located on the East Coast of the US, were assigned computer accounts on USC-ISIA, located on the West Coast in LA=2E = ; Thus to do their work, exchanging email, editting documents, and such, they had to *use* the Arpanet to connect their terminals in Washington to the PDP-10 in California - 3000 miles away=2E

Second, ARPA began requiring all of their contractors (researchers at Universities etc=2E) to interact with Arpa using email and FTP=2E&n= bsp;  If your site was "on the Arpanet", you had to use the Arpanet=2E = If you wanted your proposal for next year's research to be funded, you had to submit your proposal using the net=2E

This policy caused a profound attention, by everyone involved, to making the Arpanet work and be useful as a collaboration tool=2E

JCR Licklider (aka Lick) was my advisor at MIT, and then my boss when I joined the Research Staff=2E   Lick had been at ARPA for a while, promoting his vision of a "Galactic Network" that resulted in the Arpanet as a first step=2E  At MIT, Lick still had need for l= ots of interactions with others=2E   My assignment was to build = and operate the email system for Lick's group at MIT on our own PDP-10=2E&= nbsp; Lick had a terminal in his office and was online a lot=2E   = If email didn't work, I heard about it=2E   If the Arpanet didn't wor= k, BBN heard about it=2E

This pressure was part of Arpa policy=2E   Sometimes it's re= ferred to as "eating your own dog food" -- i=2Ee=2E, making sure your "dog" will get the same kind of nutrition you enjoy=2E   IMHO, that pre= ssure policy was important, perhaps crucial, to the success of the Arpanet=2E

In the 70s, meetings still occurred, but a lot of progress was made through the use of the Arpanet=2E   You can only do so much = with email and file interactions=2E  Today, the possibilities for far richer interactions are much more prevalent=2E   But IMHO they are = held back, possibly because no one is feeling the pressure to "make it work"=2E&n= bsp;  Gigabit throughputs are common, but why does my video and audio still break up=2E=2E=2E?

It's important to have face-to-face meetings, but perhaps if the IETF scheduled a future meeting to be online only, whatever needs to happen to make it work would happen?  Perhaps=2E=2E=2E

Even a "game" might drive progress=2E  At Interop '92, we resurre= cted the old "MazeWars" game using computers scattered across the show exhibit halls=2E  The engineers in the control room above the flo= or felt the pressure to make sure the Game continued to run=2E  At t= he time, the Internet itself was too slow for enjoyable gameplay at any distance=2E   Will the Internet 30 years later work?

Or perhaps the IETF, or ISOC, or someone could take on a highly visible demo involving non-techie end users=2E   An online m= eeting of the UN General Assembly?   Or some government bodies - US Co= ngress, British Parliament, etc=2E

Such an event would surface the issues, both technical and policy, to the engineers, corporations, policy-makers, and others who might have the ability and interest to "make it work"=2E

Jack


On 11/14/23 10:10, Sebastian Moeller wrote:
Hi Jack,



On Nov 14, 2023, at 13:02, =
Jack Haverty via Nnagain <nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet>=
; wrote:

If video conferencing worked well enough, they would not have to all get t=
ogether in one place and would instead hold IETF meetings online =2E=2E=2E?

	[SM] Turns out that humans are social creatures, and some things work bet=
ter face-to-face and in the hallway (and if that is only building trust and=
 sympathy) than over any remote technology=2E



Did anyone measure latency?=
   Does anyone measure throughput of "useful" traffic - e=2Eg=2E, excluding=
 video/audio data that didn't arrive in time to be actually used on the scr=
een or speaker?

	[SM] Utility is in the eye of the beholder, no?



Jack Haverty


On 11/14/23 09:25, Vint Cerf via Nnagain wrote:

if they had not been all =
together they would have been consuming tons of video capacity doing video =
conference calls=2E=2E=2E=2E

:-))
v


On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 10:46=E2=80=AFAM Livingood, Jason via Nnagain <nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote:
On the subject of how much bandwidth does one household need, here's a fun=
 stat for you=2E

=20
At the IETF=E2=80=99s 118th meeting last week (Nov 4 =E2=80=93 10, 2023), =
there were over 1,000 engineers in attendance=2E At peak there were 870 dev=
ices connected to the WiFi network=2E Peak bandwidth usage:

	=E2=80=A2 Downstream peak ~750 Mbps
	=E2=80=A2 Upstream ~250 Mbps
=20
From=20my pre-meeting Twitter poll (https://tw=
itter=2Ecom/jlivingood/status/1720060429311901873):

<image001=2Epng>

_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain


--=20
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice





_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list

Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain

_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain


    

    

  
-- =

Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=
=2E



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