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Sat, 01 Jun 2024 15:24:31 +0000 Message-ID: <26794f65-08a1-403e-a69d-530c6e481cb2@dcrocker.net> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dcrocker.net; s=hostingermail-a; t=1717255469; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=8WzM8h6MUNJfu65X8jEnks8Aawgb4kSZUkwB93Z55NY=; b=Pxdhi4QTlmZ3VNaSo922PXd4VKkpV8Yu4xQ4bHOwfH9E44zQBXU+Qin0iHJn0WawCBkD3N QVDCd1TWhbzXVH9NDx/yFaj0LPcves+eyRpH6+w9dbT1pj+4U5DMzOniLPq7qB9CdWN6HT foeBYWT3OV8oVmAE2hAJgihz2X/QijIxDVtBuaH6Ft9QWOmKscEvn/R+b9f+RzCspXt2cq +cJndZgxNPKJ+Gju08kj9pzcgSODaLXI7bhtDV5FAXCkbMo20DwU6Myt6sS3x0+qvfJ38W UsjMpHqax15iRumWmLB7Ezm2b655qLYWlBqsr/F0nUTPat+5BA0iowfRWk2g6g== Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2024 08:24:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net Content-Language: en-US To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspe?= =?UTF-8?Q?cts_heard_this_time!?= References: From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-CM-Envelope: MS4xfEBHKIJVNJoPO4IZ4huHmdlxG80OiRoX2NTyNk+9Sb+19Wo43L4q/FEHnaP/m2mxUpdXo603RxsqkZ8uO0Mvf70Ic4xA62q1ux19bYcT2GZ7GybIJYuc Jyy9dfBypUhjKnJuuVeThW2HgwSMe6XVmZia06KWmT0d7hXL94QBH0D7+VTj0gnFGS8zL8GhP4kakpME9duRGQxYywzCNHdyfisSW2ifc4uyDwt6i5alQWyn X-CM-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=DoYE+3/+ c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=665b3d2d a=f+oD5hTMMv8HtluUlp4ziA==:117 a=f+oD5hTMMv8HtluUlp4ziA==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=ZoDHmhZ_AAAA:8 a=k7Ga1wGzAAAA:8 a=_V2mhfWPwv7bosq68WwA:9 a=3ZKOabzyN94A:10 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=YkHqZn4DAA8ilfHe0JZC:22 a=ijMaxGghyylP-n2pFjDB:22 X-AuthUser: dhc@dcrocker.net Subject: Re: [NNagain] I keep hoping that we will turn this corner X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2024 15:24:33 -0000 On 6/1/2024 7:48 AM, Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote: > https://randomneuronsfiring.com/all-the-reasons-that-bufferbloat-isnt-a-problem/ > A curse of being bright is failing to recognize when we aren't. If only there were a term for that... Some decades back, I heard Kleinrock give a summary of queuing theory research where he reduced it to a graph.  Throughput vs. latency.  The curve was almost flat, rising only slightly, until the knee of the curve, which was quite sharp, going to almost vertical.  He noted that the math for this was complicated but the summary description was not:  "Things are very, very good, until they are very very bad. When they are good, you don't need queuing.  When they are bad, queuing won't help; you need more capacity.  Queuing is for the brief and occasional period within the knee of the curve." If it ain't transient then queuing isn't the answer.  If it is transient, you don't need lots of buffering. Systems thinking is not natural for most of us, and bufferbloat is an example of local optimization without attention to systems effects.  For the list of push-backs your article cites, that lack of attention is due to excessive faith in entirely misguided intuitions. Systems thinking requires quite a bit of skepticism about intuitions. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker@mastodon.social