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([77.6.162.103]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MMGN2-1r7VcV060k-00JFbL; Sun, 08 Oct 2023 11:38:09 +0200 Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2023 11:38:04 +0200 From: Sebastian Moeller To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=B4s_mak?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?e_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= , rjmcmahon via Nnagain User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <18b0c0fca5a.df21b356967361.3801960253537018542@phillywisper.net> Message-ID: <2EB085CD-44EB-4664-9436-6077A106151A@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:C7vwdk2O2yjQkQgZckHiBiwVXrqSMaH/KA3lc8BB4OzuVWlnU1B WHr6r9VyWDai7eRKntobHyj8MTJgGE8cqktDVWAqFqQ4sjAfJWJm1ikOJDokmL5vjDKiTs7 OLFbCw0lm7pjf2z85RurX0dicKbfgZLdzzeRije5ApAvxNoJdbWHwEKE8rggPUZADqi0RU3 QxD+fyQ/wkp1glrG7DU6g== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:Nnxi7SBso78=;SCnjQq11Q7lA568d0Q5VS32tY1V 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Re: [NNagain] The non-death of DSL X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2023 09:38:14 -0000 Hi Bob, On 8 October 2023 00:13:07 CEST, rjmcmahon via Nnagain wrote: >Everybody abandoned my local loop=2E Twisted pair from multiple decades a= go into antiquated, windowless COs with punch blocks, with no space nor lat= ency advantage for colocated content & compute, seems to have killed it off= =2E=20 [SM] Indeed, throughput for DSL is inversely proportional to loop length, = so providing 'acceptable' capacity requires sufficiently short wire runs f= rom DSLAM to CPE, and that in turn means moving DSLAMs closer to the end us= ers=2E=2E=2E which in a densely populated area works well, but in a less de= nsely populated area becomes costly fast=2E And doing so will only make sen= se if you get enough customers on such an 'outdoor DSLAM' so might work for= the first to built out, but becomes prohibitively unattractive for other I= SP later=2E However terminating the loops in the field clears up lots of sp= aces in the COs=2E=2E=2E not that anybody over here moved much compute into= these=2E=2E=2E (there exist too many COs to make that an attractive propos= ition in spite of all the hype about moving compute to the edge)=2E As is a= few well connected data centers for compute seem to work well enough=2E=2E= =2E I suspect in some towns one can buy out the local loop copper with just a = promise of maintenance=2E=20 [SM] A clear sign of regulatory failure to me, maintenance of the copper p= lant inherited from Bell should never have been left to the ISPs to decide = about=2E=2E=2E=20 The whole CLEC open the loop to competitive access seems to have failed pe= r costs, antiquated technology, limited colocation, an outdated waveguide (= otherwise things like CDDI would have won over Cat 5), and market reasons= =2E The early ISPs didn't collocate, they bought T1s and E1s and connected = the TDM to statistical multiplexing - no major investment there either=2E > >The RBOCs, SBC (now AT&T) & and VZ went to contract carriage and wireless= largely because of the burdens of title II per regulators not being able t= o create an investment into the OSPs=2E The 2000 blow up was kinda real=2E [SM] Again, I see no fault in title 2 here, but in letting ISPs of the hoo= k on maintaining their copper plant or replace it with FTTH=2E=2E=2E > >She starts out by complaining about trying to place her WiFi in the right= place=2E That's like trying to share a flashlight=2E She has access to the= FCC technology group full of capable engineers=2E They should have told h= er to install some structured wire, place more APs, set the carrier and tur= n down the power=2E=20 [SM] I rather read this more as an attempt to built a report with the audi= ence over a shared experience and less as a problem report ;) My wife works in the garden now using the garden AP SSID with no issues=2E= My daughter got her own carrier too per here Dad dedicating a front end mo= dule for her distance learning needs=2E I think her story to justify title = II regulation is a bit made up=2E [SM] Hmm, while covid19 lockdown wasn't the strongest example, I agree, I = see no good argument for keeping essential infrastructure like internet acc= ess in private hands without appropriate oversight=2E Especially given the = numbers for braodband choice for customers, clearly the market is not going= to solve the issues at hand=2E > >Also, communications have been essential back before the rural free deliv= ery of mail in 1896=2E Nothing new here other than hyperbole to justify a 5= member commission acting as the single federal regulator over 140M househo= lds and 33M businesses, almost none of which have any idea about the comple= xities of the internet=2E [SM] But the access network is quite different than the internet's core, s= o not being experts on the core seems acceptable, no? And even 5 members is= clearly superior to no oversight at all? I'm not buying it and don't want to hand the keys to the FCC who couldn't= protect journalism nor privacy=2E Maybe start there, looking at what they = didn't do versus blaming contract carriage for a distraction? [SM] I can speak to the FCC as regulatory agency, but over here IMHO the n= ational regulatory agency does a decent job arbitrating between the interes= ts of both sides=2E > >https://about=2Eusps=2Ecom/who/profile/history/rural-free-delivery=2Ehtm#= :~:text=3DOn%20October%201%2C%201896%2C%20rural,were%20operating%20in%2029%= 20states=2E > >Bob >> My understanding, though I am not 100% certain, is that the baby bells >> lobbied to have the CLEC equal access provisions revoked/gutted=2E >> Before this, the telephone companies were required to provide access >> to the "last mile" of the copper lines and the switches at wholesale >> costs=2E Once the equal access provisions were removed, the telephone >> companies started charging the small phone and DSL providers close to >> the retail price for access=2E The CLEC DSL providers could not stay in >> business when they charged a customer $35 / month for Internet service >> while the telephone company charged the DSL ISP $35 / month for >> access=2E >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> ---- On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 17:22:10 -0400 Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote = --- >> > I have a lot to unpack from this: >> > >> > https://docs=2Efcc=2Egov/public/attachments/DOC-397257A1=2Epdf >> > >> > the first two on my mind from 2005 are: "FCC adopted its first open >> > internet policy" and "Competitiveness" As best as I recall, (and >> > please correct me), this led essentially to the departure of all the >> > 3rd party DSL providers from the field=2E I had found something >> > referencing this interpretation that I cannot find right now, but I = do >> > clearly remember all the DSL services you could buy from in the earl= y >> > 00s, and how few you can buy from now=2E Obviously there are many o= ther >> > possible root causes=2E >> > >> > DSL continued to get better and evolve, but it definately suffers fr= om >> > many reports of degraded copper quality, but does an estimate exist >> > for how much working DSL is left? >> > >> > Q0) How much DSL is in the EU? >> > Q1) How much DSL is left in the USA? >> > Q2) What form is it? (VDSL, etc?) >> > >> > Did competition in DSL vanish because of or not of an FCC related or= der? >> > >> > -- >> > Oct 30: https://netdevconf=2Einfo/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-musi= c-bof=2Ehtml >> > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Nnagain mailing list >> > Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >> > https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain >_______________________________________________ >Nnagain mailing list >Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E