From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDEBA3CB52 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2023 11:58:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (c-69-181-111-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [69.181.111.171]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F34101B280; Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:58:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com F34101B280 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1698681490; bh=O4DN0TO9KkFto8boN7eo+kXiIpxy0W6l+SiwcCzl8qM=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:CC:From; b=fkLbfQr/nbUTEJmrsxXn1Zk9kwTmN6N5qgsxR8HzRUScKOfQ53kiS2jluWG9zoWSG kJwPXn3b6NseblII27zZKaxS5ooCMR5Aqy6waO4JoFfMvw3PdAPUu9pLLcJotSJTJ6 w13P2PTGyG1e43rJdVtYFL0aEI/dYpZPru2m1/Wc= In-Reply-To: <617093D3-0AF2-416D-BD6A-F489BB2EEBFE@comcast.com> References: <617093D3-0AF2-416D-BD6A-F489BB2EEBFE@comcast.com> X-Referenced-Uid: 0001186a567702d5 Thread-Topic: [NNagain] 2015 flashback User-Agent: Android X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----HJKGSA0DO8JFRAQS28K39EXY4VF0T5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert McMahon Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:58:09 -0700 To: "Livingood, Jason" CC: Mike Conlow via Nnagain Message-ID: <2b1fb8f6-84f4-4d5b-8082-4d68d9b5dc92@rjmcmahon.com> Subject: Re: [NNagain] 2015 flashback X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2023 15:58:10 -0000 ------HJKGSA0DO8JFRAQS28K39EXY4VF0T5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 It may be a lack of awareness as well as a statement on home networks that = are woefully underfunded=2E Security vulnerability scanning, audits and rep= orting seem like an obvious need, likely even more than low latency - thoug= h both are needed=2E Our smoke detectors beep incessantly when the sensors = expire or the battery is low=2E There really is no consumer signal to upgra= de per vulnerabilities, though that's=C2=A0 all that's needed 80+% of the t= ime=2E I recently replaced all my circuit breakers with AFCI to prevent el= ectrical fires=2E That's a recent innovation to our home electrical network= s=2E We need even more innovation for home comm networks=2E Maybe the gove= rnment helps educate homeowners on their vulnerabilities? Then, market part= icipants sell services to help? Also, it seems good idea to remove the ge= neral purpose CPUs running full-blown multi user systems and replace them w= ith signal processing and L2 forwarding/transit, a la FiWi=2E But at our cu= rrent rate of home networking innovation, that may take as long as AFCIs=2E= I hope not as this should help significantly with the pernicious security = issues found all throughout networking where no silver bullet that resolves= all, rather continuous innovation is required=2E Bob On Oct 30, 2023, 7:= 20 AM, at 7:20 AM, "Livingood, Jason" wrote= : >On home routers / gateways, many ISPs will lease a device to users and >= that covers the cost of ongoing feature & security & performance >updates a= nd so on=2E The retail channel is mostly (except at the high >end) a 1-time= purchase with no ongoing revenue for the device maker or >incentive for sh= ipping reasonably current software=2E But with the FCC's >upcoming cybersec= urity certification program under consideration, I do >wonder if that will = improve the situation for consumers by pushing >device makers to improve th= eir software & ongoing support (such as for >bugs/vulns)? > >Jason > >=EF= =BB=BFOn 10/29/23, 15:29, "Nnagain on behalf of rjmcmahon via Nnagain" > on behalf of >nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet > >wrote: > > >My thoughts are those that w= ant to innovate in network devices should >do >the innovative work and sel= l their innovations to the market, then find > >out if the market wants tho= se innovations by asking for payments=2E I >find >if people are unwilling = to pay for something it many times means that >that something isn't seen a= s desired=2E Market signals are a way in a >capitalistic system to allocat= e resources including human resources=2E > > >Asking government to step in = and expropriate decades of intellectual >property development or the outsi= de plants via "type II regulation" is >typically not effective and likely = not even legal=2E Few want to do the >work and have their work taken away = by the State=2E Systems that allow >this will cause investment into these = activities to cease, and more >importantly, it is a form of State coercion= parading itself as "doing >good=2E" Nobody wants to go back to the days o= f Ma Bell and State >controlled communications=2E > > >There are existence= proofs of many new Wifi & AP companies since 2015=2E >One may look there = to see how these groups were able to innovate so >their products had monet= ary value and how device mfg became partners=2E > > >Bob >> We had many not= ables have key and prophetic things to say about the >> internet's problems= and future=2E=2E=2E back in 2015, >> when we were fighting to keep home ro= uters open enough to fix them=2E >> >> >https://urldefense=2Ecom/v3/__http= s://docs=2Egoogle=2Ecom/document/d/1HT2NjsHR1bGQM0PeawYuF60B_m3Hisa3_Q1MB2a= VNs4/edit?usp=3Dsharing__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!BCaF1xaItJ-TpDmrKGG4HLKkne8v8RFk8VPt= vJvbGCPzppWvm-WhX1qVDgb5iDYDWv9Sfr7Gc55XSVXOywt-cZ6qpyBapjnz$ > > >> >> I do not think any of the contributors to this document= have changed >> their opinions much since then, and while I think the situ= ation less >> dire, the overall scope of these problems outlined above, wid= er=2E >_______________________________________________ >Nnagain mailing lis= t >Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >https://urldefense=2Ecom/v3/__https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listi= nfo/nnagain__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!BCaF1xaItJ-TpDmrKGG4HLKkne8v8RFk8VPtvJvbGCPzppWv= m-WhX1qVDgb5iDYDWv9Sfr7Gc55XSVXOywt-cZ6qpzc2Z5hA$ > > ------HJKGSA0DO8JFRAQS28K39EXY4VF0T5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It may be a = lack of awareness as well as a statement on home networks that are woefully= underfunded=2E Security vulnerability scanning, audits and reporting seem = like an obvious need, likely even more than low latency - though both are n= eeded=2E Our smoke detectors beep incessantly when the sensors expire or th= e battery is low=2E There really is no consumer signal to upgrade per vulne= rabilities, though that's=C2=A0 all that's needed 80+% of the time=2E
I recently replaced all my circuit breakers with= AFCI to prevent electrical fires=2E That's a recent innovation to our home= electrical networks=2E We need even more innovation for home comm networks= =2E

Maybe the government helps educate home= owners on their vulnerabilities? Then, market participants sell services to= help?

Also, it seems good idea to remove = the general purpose CPUs running full-blown multi user systems and replace = them with signal processing and L2 forwarding/transit, a la FiWi=2E But at = our current rate of home networking innovation, that may take as long as AF= CIs=2E I hope not as this should help significantly with the pernicious sec= urity issues found all throughout networking where no silver bullet that re= solves all, rather continuous innovation is required=2E

Bob
On Oct 30, 2023, at 7:20= AM, "Livingood, Jason" <jason_livingood@comcast=2Ecom> wrote: 
On ho=
me routers / gateways, many ISPs will lease a device to users and that cove=
rs the cost of ongoing feature & security & performance updates and=
 so on=2E The retail channel is mostly (except at the high end) a 1-time pu=
rchase with no ongoing revenue for the device maker or incentive for shippi=
ng reasonably current software=2E But with the FCC's upcoming cybersecurity=
 certification program under consideration, I do wonder if that will improv=
e the situation for consumers by pushing device makers to improve their sof=
tware & ongoing support (such as for bugs/vulns)? 

Jason 
=EF=BB=BFOn 10/29/23, 15:29, "Nnagain on behalf of rjmcmahon via Nnagain" =
<nnagain-bounces@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet <mailto:nnagain-bounces@li=
sts=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> on behalf of nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet =
<mailto:nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet>> wrote:


My t=
houghts are those that want to innovate in network devices should do 
th=
e innovative work and sell their innovations to the market, then find 
o=
ut if the market wants those innovations by asking for payments=2E I find <=
br>if people are unwilling to pay for something it many times means that that something isn't seen as desired=2E Market signals are a way in a capitalistic system to allocate resources including human resources=2E
=


Asking government to step in and expropriate decades of intellectua=
l 
property development or the outside plants via "type II regulation" i=
s 
typically not effective and likely not even legal=2E Few want to do t=
he 
work and have their work taken away by the State=2E Systems that all=
ow 
this will cause investment into these activities to cease, and more =

importantly, it is a form of State coercion parading itself as "doing <=
br>good=2E" Nobody wants to go back to the days of Ma Bell and State 
co=
ntrolled communications=2E


There are existence proofs of many ne=
w Wifi & AP companies since 2015=2E 
One may look there to see how t=
hese groups were able to innovate so 
their products had monetary value =
and how device mfg became partners=2E


Bob
 We had many notables have key and propheti=
c things to say about the
 internet's problems and future=2E=2E=2E back =
in 2015,
 when we were fighting to keep home routers open enough to fix =
them=2E
 
 https://urldefense=2Ecom/v=
3/__https://docs=2Egoogle=2Ecom/document/d/1HT2NjsHR1bGQM0PeawYuF60B_m3Hisa=
3_Q1MB2aVNs4/edit?usp=3Dsharing__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!BCaF1xaItJ-TpDmrKGG4HLKkne8v=
8RFk8VPtvJvbGCPzppWvm-WhX1qVDgb5iDYDWv9Sfr7Gc55XSVXOywt-cZ6qpyBapjnz$ &=
lt;https://urldefense=2Ecom/v3/__https://do=
cs=2Egoogle=2Ecom/document/d/1HT2NjsHR1bGQM0PeawYuF60B_m3Hisa3_Q1MB2aVNs4/e=
dit?usp=3Dsharing__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!BCaF1xaItJ-TpDmrKGG4HLKkne8v8RFk8VPtvJvbGC=
PzppWvm-WhX1qVDgb5iDYDWv9Sfr7Gc55XSVXOywt-cZ6qpyBapjnz$> 
 
 I=
 do not think any of the contributors to this document have changed
 the=
ir opinions much since then, and while I think the situation less
 dire,=
 the overall scope of these problems outlined above, wider=2E

Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet <ma=
ilto:Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet>
https://urldefense=2Ecom/v3/__https://lists=2Ebuf=
ferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!BCaF1xaItJ-TpDmrKGG4HLKkne8v=
8RFk8VPtvJvbGCPzppWvm-WhX1qVDgb5iDYDWv9Sfr7Gc55XSVXOywt-cZ6qpzc2Z5hA$ &=
lt;https://urldefens=
e=2Ecom/v3/__https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain__;!!CQl3mcH=
X2A!BCaF1xaItJ-TpDmrKGG4HLKkne8v8RFk8VPtvJvbGCPzppWvm-WhX1qVDgb5iDYDWv9Sfr7=
Gc55XSVXOywt-cZ6qpzc2Z5hA$>



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