From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from secmail.pch.net (secmail.pch.net [206.220.231.87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C128E3CB38 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 18:14:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from secmail.pch.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by secmail.pch.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TJ8MJ6lPYz4xVTx for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 15:14:52 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: secmail.pch.net (amavisd-new); dkim=pass reason="pass (just generated, assumed good)" header.d=pch.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=pch.net; h= x-mailer:references:to:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version :content-type:message-id:from; s=secmail_dkim; t=1705878890; x= 1708470891; bh=Gnj8zab826w2qc6ePaCVx3MTsnYlNeh1TgCmGCrbpfI=; b=x +YlJ7126YlYl66pgXya/WqTyFwrDLtN//u7Qgt/Ff4lVEXfnUa0cOND8eY8A+Fv7 DQ+msuO5eUN/J+5R4b1b1NDgeAIVqbmyWesxt5pf5YVsxlGbaRkOqO1VgKm3ORv7 tDo/rrhtQdDjEPpDoYDNi/2dc8Kq6zbhq1B0WLr1jzrBVIm1witpJJXYJcy0zUm/ BuLaKOIMe29g9gduCWozPRcMVrRFmCc/sn3LXTC2U82GDlqXz+jtsvXC0b5ydFru Pq7aDYypmDcqz3z1MPKc0t6fOtATi+Nxqg5CNAeQzu2RNsjaSL5lYgu12MiptUZH FysXptkz/hp0qT3EP5YOg== X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at secmail.pch.net Received: from secmail.pch.net ([127.0.0.1]) by secmail.pch.net (secmail.pch.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id Cv65u3pIxTA9 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 15:14:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [66.185.123.190]) by secmail.pch.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4TJ8M93sw9z4xVTd; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 15:14:45 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Woodcock Message-Id: <3EE32277-07BB-4918-B67C-6EBE8A79538E@pch.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_30B738F8-5E7D-411D-ABA5-5AB89C68D610" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.400.31\)) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2024 00:14:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: <89D115E1-226B-4A2C-A7E3-ED497B12A368@pch.net> Cc: Nishal Goburdhan , Sara Alamin To: =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= References: <9AA43400ADE04EA0A0391A757CA61B40@SRA6> <350FAEBF-63EC-49BF-B00F-9855EDE4F418@pch.net> <89D115E1-226B-4A2C-A7E3-ED497B12A368@pch.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.400.31) Subject: Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock? X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 23:14:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_30B738F8-5E7D-411D-ABA5-5AB89C68D610 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jan 19, 2024, at 09:36, Bill Woodcock wrote: >> On Jan 19, 2024, at 05:38, le berger des photons via Nnagain wrote: >> On 1/18/2024 6:14 PM, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain wrote: >>> Do y=E2=80=99all (meaning folks on the list generally) want to just = organize up a >>> video-call, to talk about how IXPs work, and address questions? I = can=20 >>> get a few of my other staff on the call, who=E2=80=99ve also dealt = with a lot of >>> IXPs, and can add to my perspective. Ok=E2=80=A6 Normally we do things on our own Jitsi server, but since we = don=E2=80=99t really have a sense of how many folks will show up for = this, we decided to do it on Zoom. = https://us06web.zoom.us/j/86131129506?pwd=3DPlhHgU24uezoTavCWTSP9N0hzpTyEC= .1=EF=BF=BC Or Zoom Meeting ID 861 3112 9506 and passcode 777245. 11pm Singapore, 4pm CET, 3pm UTC, 10am US east, 7am US west. There was a question as to whether it will be recorded and whether it = can be shared=E2=80=A6 Yes, everything PCH does is under a Creative = Commons Attribution Non-Commercial license. I=E2=80=99ll try to make = sure that we record and post the video. We=E2=80=99ll try to cover the diversity of ways IXPs get started, = governed, and grow, best-practices, and leave plenty of time for Q&A / = discussion. =20 Jay=E2=80=99s original question, regarding how an IXP would interact = with a rural community fiber network of 200 families in a 25km radius, = provides a useful starting-point for the conversation. For reference, = his network is here: = https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dordogne,+France/@46.563077,-2.2371537,6= z/data=3D!4m6!3m5!1s0x47ff7a7475a8138b:0x3066517481126e0!8m2!3d45.1469486!= 4d0.7572205!16zL20vMGM4MnM?entry=3Dttu=EF=BF=BC Dordogne =C2=B7 France google.com https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dordogne=EF=BF=BC Dordogne en.wikipedia.org https://www.insee.fr/en/statistiques/6455956?geo=3DDEP-24=EF=BF=BC https://www.politico.eu/article/behind-the-dordognes-right-turn/=EF=BF=BC Behind the Dordogne=E2=80=99s right turn politico.eu It has an average population density of 46 people per square kilometer, = spread over 9,000 square kilometers, and the ten largest towns range = from 4,000 to 30,000 in population. GDPPP is EUR 26,000. 25% of the = population is under 30 years old. There are 400,000 people in 190,000 = households, or 2.1 people per household. This compares with density of 118 per Km^2, GDPPP of EUR 40,000, and 35% = under age 30 for France overall, and density of 20,000 per Km^2, GDPPP = of EUR 65,000, and 38% under 30 for Paris. So, the region has far lower = density than average, less money, and people are older on average. = Politics are more right-wing, and the sense (generally correct) in most = of France is that significant infrastructure projects are reserved for = Paris, while the rest of the country limps along behind at some years of = remove. A typical town looks like this: =EF=BF=BC Five hundred people spread in a 500m radius around a road intersection, = with neighboring similar-sized towns three or four kilometers down each = of those roads in a relatively dense mesh. If Jay=E2=80=99s 25km estimate is accurate, that means his network is = covering 20% of the region. If the population were spread evenly, that = would be 80,000 people within his service region, in 38,000 households. = The fact that he mentions 200 families suggests to me that his network = is in parts of Dordogne that are more rural than average, since it would = be very difficult to maintain a network at only half-a-percent of homes = passed. So I=E2=80=99m guessing it doesn=E2=80=99t include any of those = towns of thousands of people, and is mostly made up of farms and the = more typical villages of hundred, or hamlets of dozens of people. There are no IXPs currently in Dordogne. In France, there are seventeen = IXes, with five in Paris and two in Marseille. The nearest IXPs to = Dordogne are seven peers in Pau, 260km to the SSW, and thirteen peers in = Toulouse, 200km to the SSE. The dense peering of Paris and Marseille = are each 500km away, in different directions.=20 As a point of comparison, my family is from Montana, a similarly rural = area of the U.S., with a population density of 2.7 per square kilometer, = GDPPP of $45k (EUR 42,000), with towns spaced more like 25km apart. = Montana has two IXPs, and is 1,800km from the larger IXPs of Chicago and = the San Francisco Bay Area, and 1,300km from Seattle. I mention this = because people frequently think =E2=80=9Cno, the population density is = too low where I live, I have to backhaul to a big city far away." Anyway, we look forward to seeing whoever can make it on the call = tomorrow. Bring your questions and arguments! :-) -Bill Tokyo Singapore Mumbai Dubai Johannesburg Paris London New York San Francisco Mon 5:00 pm Mon 4:00 pm Mon 1:30 pm Mon 12:00 noon Mon 10:00 am Mon 9:00 am Mon 8:00 am Mon 3:00 am Mon 12:00 midnight Mon 6:00 pm Mon 5:00 pm Mon 2:30 pm Mon 1:00 pm Mon 11:00 am Mon 10:00 am Mon 9:00 am Mon 4:00 am Mon 1:00 am Mon 7:00 pm Mon 6:00 pm Mon 3:30 pm Mon 2:00 pm Mon 12:00 noon Mon 11:00 am Mon 10:00 am Mon 5:00 am Mon 2:00 am Mon 8:00 pm Mon 7:00 pm Mon 4:30 pm Mon 3:00 pm Mon 1:00 pm Mon 12:00 noon Mon 11:00 am Mon 6:00 am Mon 3:00 am Mon 9:00 pm Mon 8:00 pm Mon 5:30 pm Mon 4:00 pm Mon 2:00 pm Mon 1:00 pm Mon 12:00 noon Mon 7:00 am Mon 4:00 am Mon 10:00 pm Mon 9:00 pm Mon 6:30 pm Mon 5:00 pm Mon 3:00 pm Mon 2:00 pm Mon 1:00 pm Mon 8:00 am Mon 5:00 am Mon 11:00 pm Mon 10:00 pm Mon 7:30 pm Mon 6:00 pm Mon 4:00 pm Mon 3:00 pm Mon 2:00 pm Mon 9:00 am Mon 6:00 am Tue 12:00 midnight Mon 11:00 pm Mon 8:30 pm Mon 7:00 pm Mon 5:00 pm Mon 4:00 pm Mon 3:00 pm Mon 10:00 am Mon 7:00 am Tue 1:00 am Tue 12:00 midnight Mon 9:30 pm Mon 8:00 pm Mon 6:00 pm Mon 5:00 pm Mon 4:00 pm Mon 11:00 am Mon 8:00 am Tue 2:00 am Tue 1:00 am Mon 10:30 pm Mon 9:00 pm Mon 7:00 pm Mon 6:00 pm Mon 5:00 pm Mon 12:00 noon Mon 9:00 am --Apple-Mail=_30B738F8-5E7D-411D-ABA5-5AB89C68D610 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7D5D7C53-13B7-4668-A1E8-BBE16B24F396" --Apple-Mail=_7D5D7C53-13B7-4668-A1E8-BBE16B24F396 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Jan 19, 2024, at 09:36, Bill Woodcock = <woody@pch.net> wrote:
On Jan 19, = 2024, at 05:38, le berger des photons via Nnagain wrote:
On 1/18/2024 = 6:14 PM, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain wrote:
=20
Do y=E2=80=99all (meaning folks on the list generally) want to = just organize up a
video-call, to talk about how IXPs work, and = address questions? I can
get a few of my other staff on the call, = who=E2=80=99ve also dealt with a lot of
IXPs, and can add to my = perspective.

Ok=E2= =80=A6  Normally we do things on our own Jitsi server, but since we = don=E2=80=99t really have a sense of how many folks will show up for = this, we decided to do it on Zoom.