From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail6.out.titan.email (mail6.out.titan.email [3.226.109.223]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 857A03B2A4 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2024 21:06:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-out.flockmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out.flockmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34676100123; Tue, 27 Feb 2024 02:06:07 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; bh=8ruFBps0NcMQ1y8wte9Q4yNUlz7/06UUKccxNM0/MSw=; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=3kitty.org; h=to:subject:from:message-id:mime-version:in-reply-to:date:references:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:cc:reply-to; q=dns/txt; s=titan1; t=1708999567; v=1; b=BrX/ErkLutzGQwqHs1O8DKNUPSJ2LrIwyp589Od+3ss1FuvhpPDP01j5ZTulvN/hen/JAKf4 +usToD07MxL04RRCNvndnPw91VK2yngKCKJ9+pxE/mgybCwkeXgAchsvPYXriTJrtyDgPViuAbM bsHEqShYIUhu/7zwCMlJ59B0= Received: from [192.168.1.100] (c-76-137-180-175.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [76.137.180.175]) by smtp-out.flockmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A8818100187; Tue, 27 Feb 2024 02:06:06 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <40cb4962-6c95-44b2-96b8-ee68a7c16b1f@3kitty.org> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2024 18:06:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: rjmcmahon , =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects?= =?UTF-8?Q?_heard_this_time!?= References: <3d808d9df1a6929ecfba495e75b4fc1b@rjmcmahon.com> <09af7b4f2ff73657a1d1b24db3d23fac@rjmcmahon.com> Content-Language: en-US Feedback-ID: :jack@3kitty.org:3kitty.org:flockmailId From: Jack Haverty Autocrypt: addr=jack@3kitty.org; keydata= xsDNBGCm2psBDADGOWO8n9wfkDW9ZUEo8o+SZ5MU9us2il+fS4EFM/RaZFIbQ+P72bExzSd3 WnJdPfqO1O7Q+dRnvVO9+G2/9oT/uRZVaE05+SothzKZBv32HcZoUkdNZOTqSkdo3EwNPjid LLxX+dMBxMpR3pBdvGN8Z7lnZe6fV4QO2xtd58y3B33AVZJp+RuNwucby9dY2meyy2BJVKrx mKhYXAucVyg0ALVIchHt9UknVW4aLvQF+oMfzXVvCWeguW+DvbyazVceWGO7FSgUJ8ED3Ii7 xAR5zZJ1LASoMhG1ixg07P9Uy4ohV6c+c0yV9SY4yqhZ3+zN2cm9h/aXpwjSuiVVAJbK7zzb FjI+h89dbnaVQrLx6GikV0OVYqC6TCeMfCFZQAJLs1icxQi3BLL7O1fbTGatEfTgLa5nqfKq K/D/HlOCUeFxqZI8hXvT5dG4e1m3ilpF2/ytcWKSVg3d699UFntPv3sEbAQwwfXsnuD4Hem6 0Ao0/z41n8x1aeZE80FdkpEAEQEAAc0eSmFjayBIYXZlcnR5IDxqYWNrQDNraXR0eS5vcmc+ wsEJBBMBCAAzFiEEZLvMn5vmvTAlFEILdGzDIkA7jlAFAmCm2pwCGwMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsC BRYCAwEAAAoJEHRswyJAO45QuX0L/jOluv8fr/BmuEEQsWWGW6oARIbjDQrI93kXIJXuPnfp tGjkx/f1TMIzI2B9s/tejiYE7IZOhWbX1YvKF0UbkSJi50UyV9XtYRnLdD5TcksKB4luDF8S R+nj5WBm17Bp8qwriCMgA1jGL2wQ7J1KUw4Q/gsMcjhn/39PevswkriU2qqVplfCs9yTTMU5 SvtE2U9F3Y1ZINHn3kUysvxhRFd+Oh3PocWHmVE+hkII+qsra6z4eztDgoB+vqxmOJEdtvex GhT8OKu74DacguZVfu/AV+cwpX701sdjJrMyKjcv8uhFLM/E5gf6kSUAFxBVwe6pNDmAgmbS c0fAFrZjgXxNxxndpu/8OAUDVzKg+l5WJ0nWss9Q14BwA+FcoclO3lwzFu7jOiLvkm7jQkFB o+p8Owe4iAED1KK/aocIa/RiD4sZ3KXUJ92kkemZ1Qe2XpFVdzxaQDG0huNkc5Mie9rdt62O Ae+5cYdPeWmBVn+pFNs5H09kQQbVR5pUxe2Aps7AzQRgptqcAQwAzzougHNMFr/O/L8HnNJW 1YyOuX0PEVNUXQPwkxKuD8bAXsPr4Hv1a+840ByesiJSadhQgVSMruRqoQC5tTkbEWkqlfDW waNAdqCJOXl2T6gtK7RpcHNx7+/du/gCAhHOXqH1Qfs0Zi3YEbR/kQFRP3wD4GiCvHSny8zJ X9plIHqQGoE5DePNAtE2KimbFMsjguqJgq5x0tMf3qEaMNd0IGTStGpcC49iss71slotH091 Y1Yo9CpzL6rj8IP0BfssEujAvf3Gbf1oi92JRE3s2humFDfPvSlHmRIfWPQ4qFOw1zmlzsV1 eg83gErKbjaDdkbwQA85RTmMVKNVvonM80WB6jAg8tlJ5VlYlpbzASpJRNj+FL1LLBQxCbPU eFwrzqYgNvtdKR7j5nTgdndCxq+2aws/aAjdL10S8yeH7ZOpNPzjDJfMSt/L1O25zPUhXdQC 9AZNYsfyV7rf+POEgVpIEth1fT9WbmS0rZxRd/+y628n31GicbA+teN890vdABEBAAHCwPYE GAEIACAWIQRku8yfm+a9MCUUQgt0bMMiQDuOUAUCYKbanQIbDAAKCRB0bMMiQDuOUF1LC/4q 4pLtmDt6TIET2H7zGj5ie3ng7kC7YqtFPYwgLQzs9WeqQ/5WowEmHOPonBcqhGbtDj22GebQ 7w0RoUHb+aXsbC85I/C+nWgT1ZcfMBTHGlBcIQvOCNG18g87Ha9jgD0HnW4bRUkZmGMpP0Yd TLM+PBNu41AK6z82VPQrfTuPKqwAAS2FK/RpF2xB7rjpETzIPl9Dj9EAkRbviURIg0BQkmej l02FLzGmlTfBIDHBdEgzvD71Z5H9BP8DAbxBzonSTzx/KZyv7njSUzdVLW+5O/WzPgb4Qt4I jQd66LS9HWS1G7AcLjiSQAIf8v7JkX3NwtN+NGX5cmt2p0e9FOOKWXVgCIgPN3/712EEGAgq UUxuPEBD5DrRCgjZL40eHxQza2BAhoVoWopUCGZdCCZJP3iF7818wIph0U393DELG9NAGLJa qkoA8KBimXp9Rd2QvpA864JRy/REoEOEF9lm3clriLyEqaL/VMIQRhl/VSkUuez4Wr68eHus TFdwePg= In-Reply-To: <09af7b4f2ff73657a1d1b24db3d23fac@rjmcmahon.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------fSup4bimqDXgiGk1iSycdvSG" X-F-Verdict: SPFVALID X-Titan-Src-Out: 1708999567072217835.4312.725293962689195816@prod-use1-smtp-out1002. X-CMAE-Score: 0 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=d4zzywjE c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=65dd438f a=cdvcmBiFVbz+0Uto4GLkPg==:117 a=cdvcmBiFVbz+0Uto4GLkPg==:17 a=CEWIc4RMnpUA:10 a=13zjGPudsaEWiJwPRgMA:9 a=kurRqvosAAAA:8 a=doUQZJtgAAAA:8 a=vnREMb7VAAAA:8 a=GVOmBQAAAAAA:20 a=VhopHIYIAAAA:8 a=9wEFEmgGAAAA:8 a=U7_ZthDDAAAA:8 a=YzuYlTQV-d8ApRNWMkEA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=usUTcz4nAAAA:8 a=u0lBGCt9tJri1ze49MAA:9 a=cw70yOub6sRDV4Ai:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=lqcHg5cX4UMA:10 a=mVcgwxjBTkr3zjpDlhIA:9 a=FfaGCDsud1wA:10 a=MLOUWCASCbysGRfUqNYA:9 a=kbxRQ_lfPIoQnHsAj2-A:22 a=d0-0EwFVFT64L02gzcZV:22 a=MWj7j3wg__VA2-K6Jgv6:22 a=URuH0njPyasT08JpGQTJ:22 a=9JDB30BYp0WKznqG0cJI:22 a=MqnEBYhnR1GEXjMu-uAJ:22 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Subject: Re: [NNagain] [M-Lab-Discuss] The FCC 2024 Section 706 Report, GN Docket No. 22-270 is out! X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 02:06:07 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------fSup4bimqDXgiGk1iSycdvSG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------66t6GpEuYUhhk90X5xEhbM5M"; protected-headers="v1" From: Jack Haverty To: rjmcmahon , =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects?= =?UTF-8?Q?_heard_this_time!?= Message-ID: <40cb4962-6c95-44b2-96b8-ee68a7c16b1f@3kitty.org> Subject: Re: [NNagain] [M-Lab-Discuss] The FCC 2024 Section 706 Report, GN Docket No. 22-270 is out! 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discovered by the engineers (I was one...).=C2=A0 Forty years later, it seems like it's= still a research topic.

Years later in the 90s I was involved in operating an international corporate intranet.=C2=A0 We quickly learned that keeping the human u= sers happy required looking at more than the routers and circuits between them.=C2=A0 With much of the "reliability mechanisms" of TCP et al no= w located in the users' computers rather than the network switches, evaluating users' experience with "the net" required measurements from the users' perspective.=C2=A0=C2=A0

To do that, we created a policy whereby every LAN attached to the long-haul backbone had to have a computer on that LAN to which we had remote access.=C2=A0=C2=A0 That enabled us to perform "ping" test= s and also collect data about TCP behavior (duplicates, retransmissions, etc.) using SNMP, etherwatch, et al.=C2=A0=C2=A0 It was not unusual f= or the users' data to indicate that "the net", as they saw it, was misbehaving while the network data, as seen by the operators, indicated that all the routers and circuits were working just fine.
If the government regulators want to keep the users happy, IMHO they need to understand this.

Jack Haverty


On 2/26/24 16:25, rjmcmahon wrote:
=
On top of all that, the latency responses tend to be non parametric and may need full pdfs/cdfs along with non-parametric statistical process controls. Attached is an example from many years ago which was a firmware bug that sometimes delayed packet processing, creating a second node in the pdf.

Engineers and their algorithms can be this way it seems.

Bob
I didn't study the whole report, but I didn't notice any metrics
associated with *variance* of latency or bandwidth.=C2=A0 It's co= mmon for
vendors to play games ("Lies, damn lies, and statistics!") to make
their metrics look good.=C2=A0=C2=A0 A metric of latency that say= s something
like "99% less than N milliseconds" doesn't necessarily translate into
an acceptable user performance.

It's also important to look at the specific techniques used for taking
measurements.=C2=A0 For example, if a measurement is performed ev= ery
fifteen minutes, extrapolating the metric as representative of all the
time between measurements can also lead to a metric judgement which
doesn't reflect the reality of what the user actually experiences.

In addition, there's a lot of mechanism between the ISPs' handling of
datagrams and the end-user.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The users' experience is = affected by how
all of that mechanism interacts as underlying network behavior
changes.=C2=A0 When a TCP running in some host decides it needs t= o
retransmit, or an interactive audio/video session discards datagrams
because they arrive too late to be useful, the user sees unacceptable
performance even though the network operators may think everything is
running fine.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Measurements from the end-users' perspe= ctive might
indicate performance is quite different from what measurements at the
ISP level suggest.

Gamers are especially sensitive to variance, but it will also apply to
interactive uses such as might occur in telemedicine or remote
operations.=C2=A0 A few years ago I helped a friend do some tests= for a
gaming situation and we discovered that the average latency was
reasonably low, but occasionally, perhaps a few times per hour,
latency would increase to 10s of seconds.

In a game, that often means the player loses.=C2=A0 In a remote surgery it
may mean horrendous outcomes.=C2=A0 As more functionality is performed "in
the cloud" such situations will become increasingly common.

Jack Haverty

On 2/26/24 12:02, rjmcmahon via Nnagain wrote:

Thanks for sharing this. I'm trying to find out what are the key
metrics that will be used for this monitoring. I want to make sure
iperf 2 can cover the technical, traffic related ones that make
sense to a skilled network operator, including a WiFi BSS manager. I
didn't read all 327 pages though, from what I did read, I didn't see
anything obvious. I assume these types of KPIs may be in reference
docs or something.

Thanks in advance for any help on this.
Bob

And...

Our bufferbloat.net submittal was cited multiple times! Thank you
all
for participating in that process!

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attac= hments/DOC-400675A1.pdf

It is a long read, and does still start off on the wrong feet
(IMHO),
in particular not understanding the difference between idle and
working latency.

It is my hope that by widening awareness of more of the real
problems
with latency under load to policymakers and other submitters
downstream from this new FCC document, and more reading what we
had to
say, that we will begin to make serious progress towards finally
fixing bufferbloat in the USA.

I do keep hoping that somewhere along the way in the future, the
costs
of IPv4 address exhaustion and the IPv6 transition, will also get
raised to the national level. [1]

We are still collecting signatures for what the bufferbloat
project
members wrote, and have 1200 bucks in the kitty for further
articles
and/or publicity. Thoughts appreciated as to where we can go next
with
shifting the national debate about bandwidth in a better
direction!
Next up would be trying to get a meeting, and to do an ex-parte
filing, I think, and I wish we could do a live demonstration on
television about it as good as feynman did here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DraMmRKGkGD= 4

Our original posting is here:


https://docs.goog= le.com/document/d/19ADByjakzQXCj9Re_pUvrb5Qe5OK-QmhlYRLMBY4vH4/edit


Larry's wonderful post is here:
https://circleid.com/posts/2023121= 1-its-the-latency-fcc

[1] How can we get more talking about IPv4 and IPv6, too? Will we
have
to wait another year?



https://hackaday.com/2024/0= 2/14/floss-weekly-episode-769-10-more-internet/


--
https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/2024_predict= ions/
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
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Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagai= n
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Nnagain mailing list
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https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain<= /a>

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