From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E64823CB39 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2023 04:38:28 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1697186300; x=1697791100; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=YLD0zJ6nXATD7dPUEL8PN87fTnNIedQlqbBh3SodvE0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=tps5jHfSbLJDFxFy0q3AsA8bB+EYxKiAu0uTHH4XpCSUvsTWJzPUo+cFsdVixpO+qckSyggf1I1 gGS2F0SHBM9GIdwVc0Io+ry/o4haZxtuGVuaxC20AhtCZLUPF811hNyiJJvXJe2BLairn5x522BM+ 1doJG8o2QlMKevx4jctEC4JkPBYE6Z7XXyy0vctF1FuekiWpGh7xdVaGWMCVqochgyFdGu0oqN/NK 1lAOQ2SZbjXsx8ZWxY+haOXbgNjyB7mowbreEPtFQvfSqkde9aHEmVhrmf2TE9gG4DcodKQLOaRXF iwNATM12vlnIxiO+rJCEzKFjjMrNXvANMWng== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mplbx-1rKqK91VcL-00qF0L; Fri, 13 Oct 2023 10:38:20 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.4\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <307264096640fab70a4c6ab983884f05@rjmcmahon.com> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 10:38:17 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <421BAE19-88B4-46FD-9D3F-B7C67048225B@gmx.de> References: <9f79b6f4b45c45c6d2fd2a43783f0157@rjmcmahon.com> <6a03ab3b-8e1c-4727-9fd9-07a38db4fb73@rjmcmahon.com> <589a1dbc49063b7e494d686ad9d71193@rjmcmahon.com> <167c8eec66fcda1b2c48833c4dd654de@rjmcmahon.com> <307264096640fab70a4c6ab983884f05@rjmcmahon.com> To: =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.4) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:xcCwJWMvEz34gK+TikppwY4dgqgKmVhnH/Z32dzJ3kq6ypv8jrl I2/V2qPZalLN73lSf/GpTEnEMIniLtvX5Ca0ApiNZXoqcCfhUKbJVv9B2qHUlp6G6IM7fr5 ck5x3Uc9Yh3QUJlbkyEcveXFZ+rWYpcw0TS7tOqj/e1cyjM4UuyWwirM9tnBWCn3yRjXppS h/ar1jNXvcoD0F2TWxXaQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:3Tcpu78lkOs=;BFhflj3y3mJDYfkRBQx/5vfIGQP VEZM2A9B2ubGznMjImAlNLcdgfKuXeW51n+73u/7HQFzEetlaRwZL3XNAuGhGdhb4DbdLJtvw 5Tn3xM8I3ql3YTNnygdq0GlLf6d/uglmB3/TXJFyvEFlIjpG7I5vnPMagNVezMR0QV8XnHTeq wOdtSc66KV5gcgrVB18LguibHe1zu+G2tPj9w0Ysi9QdLnd95mbbxlLE5UxFSmRfzzw5inNa6 TgUIX8qwUO9QjFyeNK74/28//9VEVRdNsE1OiCtX46G5Lxn8Z78ntzawyBvL/N/Bj6Ee2CAsh t3BloLHJ+PvuqjKahENfxDT1cTjNFZ4eAnSfngC3zNCAzKRG1vBsKXHN9rAuz1F3i//NNnSOA pHMNY1ZyZYUq8mMqF4UVPG7b0txKeCA+ANyHbIdK/L11BqEfmZRodmQL2yqK2Ndb4tQHsnIqv 9Wb1zWYQ1S1KpLN1+XpIFbV9HydqAV0MdjmBKXQlNs7WvHUNAvA7GRvuflWgSNs9KOe3hUU0B stKWpV9NeGhl7IPA1nCaYnGjpc3JiCD2JMssz+slOCCJy/WqnLjY7LEe7qDgb5yDYSbscTKsD wUZIlMePUbY1TqUsQ/OI5iP53K6iLfpjY9X9munOmOhJrGIwvsqq0HFpfJd9k67mfMn/5Cnhf WUiK00QP9EKh8nhHjJQGLLRrvdxWZ8ldLA/7H7LfZ+mR+3PkIgNeOJInCPSzRjG5JwMTNoFsX z0JoW7ishA6QuPNQsVAHzdZteL/TbnMsGu5s8QHopjIiLMqXrBVmcarzMHL82RotJqMR5pwC3 OC3uoI2ZR1ZTfoRf3RvJjEQCTIz48gt/GftBdZxN2hvd/k7/fZ+HX+7KUvrmDNttYyeyLA1N3 Ilodsplq+TUHgeSsk/1HFE6LwbqPfiSnd5RZjijzsZiA/JUOcOWoZR5gM2wqIzd0oncA7m20P eTr9S+lyi5JS33DzxUp6m/UaYpE= Subject: Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati? X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 08:38:29 -0000 Hi Bob, > On Oct 13, 2023, at 06:31, rjmcmahon via Nnagain = wrote: >=20 > Hi David, >=20 > I think we're looking at different parts of the elephant. I perceive = huge advances in WiFi (phy, dsp, radios, fems, etc.) and residential = gateway chips of late. Not sure the state of chips used by the openwrt = folks here, [SM] The core OpenWrt developers seem to be mostly software = folks (that are occasionally hired-by/cooperating with hardware = companies) so in a sense OpenWrt uses those "chips" that are available = in (cheapish) WiFi APs/routers available on the market where the = manufacturer is either opensource friendly (some NDAs seem to be = acceptable at least to some of the developers) or where folks are eager = enough to reverse engineer stuff. That leaves some large vendors pretty = much out of the OpenWrt ecosystem... e.g. broadcom has a reputation as = being opensource unfriendly and hence has a lot of SoC/chips that are = not supported by the opensource OpenWrt mainline.... I guess there might = be vendor-private SDKs for broadcom chips that are based on OpenWrt, but = I am purely speculating... (I think there is mainline support for = some/most? ethernet chips, and some mostly oder WiFi, but modern WiFi or = stuff like DSL seems not supported). > though they may be lagging a bit - not sure. >=20 > = https://investors.broadcom.com/news-releases/news-release-details/broadcom= -announces-availability-second-generation-wi-fi-7 >=20 > Broadcom=E2=80=99s Wi-Fi 7 ecosystem product portfolio includes the = BCM6765, BCM47722, and BCM4390. >=20 > The BCM6765 is optimized for the residential Wi-Fi access point = market. Key features include: > ... > The BCM47722 is an enterprise access point platform SoC supporting = Wi-Fi 7, Bluetooth Low Energy, and 802.15.4 protocols. Key features = include: > ... > The BCM4390 is a highly-integrated Wi-Fi 7 and Bluetooth 5 combo chip = optimized for mobile handset applications. Key features include: > ... [SM] Yeah, these are not supported by OpenWrt yet, and likely = never will, unless Broadcom changes its stance towards coperation with = opensource developers in that section of the market. Regards Sebastian >=20 > Bob >> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon via Nnagain wrote: >>> I looked at openwrt packages and iperf 2 is at version 2.1.3 which = is a few years old. >>> The number of CPE/AP systems to test against is quite large. Then = throwing in versions for backwards compatibility testing adds yet = another vector. >> for the market as a whole, yes, it's a hard problem. But for an >> individual manfacturer, they only have to work with their equipment, >> not all the others. The RF side isn't changing from release to = release >> (and usually the firmware for the Wifi isn't changing), so that >> eliminates a lot of the work. They need to do more smoke testing of >> new releases than a full regression/performance test. Some >> incompatibility creeping in is the most likely problem, not a subtle >> performance issue. >> For the Scale conference, we have a Pi tied to a couple relays hooked >> to the motherboard of the router we use and it's tied in to our = github >> repo, so every PR gets auto-flashed to the router and simple checks >> done. Things like this should be easy to setup and will catch most >> issues. >> David Lang >>> Since it's performance related, statistical techniques are required = against multiple metrics to measure statistically the same or not. = Finally with WiFi, one needs to throw in some controlled, repeatable RF = variability around the d-matrices (range) & h-matrices (frequency = responses in both phase and amplitudes per the MIMO spatial streams.) >>> I can see why vendors (& system integrators) might be slow to adopt = the latest if there is not some sort of extensive qualification ahead of = that adoption. >>> Bob >>> PS. Iperf 2 now has 2.5+ million downloads (if sourceforge is to be = believed.) My wife suggested I write a book titled, "How to create = software with 2.5M downloads, a zero marginal cost to produce, and get = paid zero dollars!!" I suspect many openwrt & other programmers could = add multiple chapters to such a book. >>>> On Thu, Oct 12, 2023 at 9:04=E2=80=AFAM rjmcmahon via Nnagain >>>> wrote: >>>>> Sorry, my openwrt information seems to be incorrect and more = vendors use >>>>> openwrt then I realized. So, I really don't know the numbers here. >>>> There are not a lot of choices in the market. On the high end, like >>>> eero, we are seeing Debian derived systems, also some chromeOS >>>> devices. Lower end there is "buildroot", and forked openwrts like >>>> Meraki. >>>> So the whole home router and cpe market has some, usually obsolete, >>>> hacked up, and unmaintained version of openwrt at its heart, on >>>> everything from SFPs to the routers and a lot of iOt, despite many >>>> advancements and security patches in the main build. >>>> It would be my earnest hope, with a clear upgrade path, downstream >>>> manufacturers would release within a few months of the main OpenWrt >>>> releases, or even at the same time, having worked with their = customers >>>> through the 6 month release candidate cycle. Microsoft accomplishes >>>> this, at least. >>> = https://www.reddit.com/r/openwrt/comments/175z8t9/imminent_release_of_open= wrt_2305/ >>>>> I do agree with the idea that fixes should be pushed to the = mainline and >>>>> that incremental upgrades should be standard practice. >>>> +1000 >>>>> Arista's SW VP gave a talk where he said that 80% of their = customer >>>>> calls about bugs were already fixed but their customer wasn't = following >>>>> an upgrade policy. This approach applies to most any sw based = product. >>>> +100 >>>>> Bob >>>>> > Hi David, >>>>> > >>>>> > The vendors I know don't roll their own os code either. The make = their >>>>> > own release still mostly based from Linux and they aren't tied = to the >>>>> > openwrt release process. >>>>> > >>>>> > I think GUIs on CPEs are the wrong direction. Consumer network >>>>> > equipment does best when it's plug and play. Consumers don't = have all >>>>> > the skills needed to manage an in home packet network that = includes >>>>> > wifi. >>>>> > >>>>> > I recently fixed a home network for my inlaws. It's a combo of >>>>> > structured wire and WiFi APs. I purchased the latest equipment = from >>>>> > Amazon vs use the ISP provided equipment. I can do this = reasonably >>>>> > well because I'm familiar with the chips inside. >>>>> > >>>>> > The online tech support started with trepidation as he was = concerned >>>>> > that the home owner, i.e me, wasn't as skilled as the ISP = technicians. >>>>> > He suggested we schedule that but I said we were good to go w/o = one. >>>>> > >>>>> > He asked to speak to my father in law when we were all done. He = told >>>>> > him, "You're lucky to have a son in law that know what he's = doing. My >>>>> > techs aren't as good, and I really liked working with him too." >>>>> > >>>>> > I say this not to brag, as many on this list could do the = equivalent, >>>>> > but to show that we really need to train lots of technicians on = things >>>>> > like RF and structured wiring. Nobody should be "lucky" to get a >>>>> > quality in home network. We're not lucky to have a flush toilet >>>>> > anymore. This stuff is too important to rely on luck. >>>>> > >>>>> > Bob >>>>> > On Oct 11, 2023, at 3:58 PM, David Lang wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> I don't know the numbers but a guess is that a majority of = SoCs >>>>> >>> with WiFi >>>>> >>> radios aren't based on openwrt. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> =46rom what I've seen, the majority of APs out there are based = on >>>>> >> OpenWRT or one >>>>> >> of the competing open projects, very few roll their own OS from >>>>> >> scratch >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> I think many on this list use openwrt but >>>>> >>> that may not be representative of the actuals. Also, the trend = is >>>>> >>> less sw in >>>>> >>> a CPU forwarding plane and more hw, one day, linux at the CPEs = mayhttps://investors.broadcom.com/news-releases/news-release-details/broad= com-announces-availability-second-generation-wi-fi-7 >>>>> >>> not be >>>>> >>> needed at all (if we get to remote radio heads - though this = is >>>>> >>> highly >>>>> >>> speculative.)Peregrine - 112G PAM4 >>>>> >> >>>>> >> that is countered by the trend to do more (fancier GUI, media >>>>> >> center, etc) The >>>>> >> vendors all want to differentiate themselves, that's hard to do = if >>>>> >> it's baked >>>>> >> into the chips >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> =46rom my experience, sw is defined by the number & frequency = of >>>>> >>> commits, and >>>>> >>> of timeliness to issues more than a version number or compile >>>>> >>> date. So the >>>>> >>> size and quality of the software staff can be informative. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I'm more interested in mfg node process then the mfg location = & >>>>> >>> date as the >>>>> >>> node process gives an idea if the design is keeping up or not. >>>>> >>> Chips designed >>>>> >>> in 2012 are woefully behind and consume too much energy and >>>>> >>> generate too much >>>>> >>> heat. I think Intel provides this information on all its chips = as >>>>> >>> an example. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I'm far less concerned about the chips than the software. = Security >>>>> >> holes are far >>>>> >> more likely in the software than the chips. The chips may limit = the >>>>> >> max >>>>> >> performance of the devices, but the focus of this is on the >>>>> >> security, not the >>>>> >> throughput or the power efficiency (I don't mind that extra = info, >>>>> >> but what makes >>>>> >> some device unsafe to use isn't the age of the chips, but the = age of >>>>> >> the >>>>> >> software) >>>>> >> >>>>> >> David Lang >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Bob >>>>> >> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, David Bray, PhD via Nnagain wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> There's also the concern about how do startups roll-out such a >>>>> >> label for >>>>> >> their tech in the early iteration phase? How do they afford to = do >>>>> >> the >>>>> >> extra >>>>> >> work for the label vs. a big company (does this become a = regulatory >>>>> >> moat?) >>>>> >> >>>>> >> And let's say we have these labels. Will only consumers with = the >>>>> >> money to >>>>> >> purchase the more expensive equipment that has more privacy and >>>>> >> security >>>>> >> features buy that one - leaving those who cannot afford privacy = and >>>>> >> security bad alternatives? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> As far as security goes, I would argue that the easy answer is = to >>>>> >> ship >>>>> >> a current version of openwrt instead of a forked, ancient = version, >>>>> >> and >>>>> >> get their changes submitted upstream (or at least maintained = against >>>>> >> upstream). It's a different paradigm than they are used to, and >>>>> >> right >>>>> >> now the suppliers tend to also work with ancient versions of >>>>> >> openwrt, >>>>> >> but in all the companies that I have worked at, it's proven to = be >>>>> >> less >>>>> >> ongoing work (and far less risk) to keep up with current = versions >>>>> >> than >>>>> >> it is to stick with old versions and then do periodic 'big = jump' >>>>> >> upgrades. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> it's like car maintinance, it seems easier to ignore your = tires, >>>>> >> brakes, and oil changes, but the minimal cost of maintaining = those >>>>> >> systems pays off in a big way over time >>>>> >> >>>>> >> David Lang >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ------------------------- >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Nnagain mailing list >>>>> >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ------------------------- >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Nnagain mailing list >>>>> >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Nnagain mailing list >>>>> > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nnagain mailing list >>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain