From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw1-x1132.google.com (mail-yw1-x1132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D057F3CB37 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2024 20:47:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-yw1-x1132.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-6083cabc2f9so4071547b3.1 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2024 17:47:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1708652865; x=1709257665; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=to:in-reply-to:cc:references:message-id:date:subject:mime-version :from:content-transfer-encoding:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=NMQyjRRDeGXY5Mg+CbRCYmKFr9Qi7s2xo7OtPThYIsU=; b=S8F6NiXZ6TW6NsC2fUtQ/67iRXh3mdOcAHMO2qvtljl3hkHxOKNGxi7oVrq9FRHKSt xctNeoPEThd2/tIiaS5dwCCR47WZ4GAktwawoyK5ZA0It2f+DwWUnLb1PJuaUID9kn3e Q1rwo3pxrklXKrHDCG/Kx2A8MsoQIMQ/qgWALXkmaBPSsSZ108I+6x4trzL/cbXDWMAs A65mUlhybUaVbWyykCxEAcKIenLjRuq57ZN9eRHTHgtxatfzrF6mC4WDhEuZkrdWIOOp BeD9RP+akIs372XcL/qWX740R9AMof3/6y1dCc/TfvKpFoz1YEgToTRC6HAz8GUxDYS6 lSrw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1708652865; x=1709257665; h=to:in-reply-to:cc:references:message-id:date:subject:mime-version :from:content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=NMQyjRRDeGXY5Mg+CbRCYmKFr9Qi7s2xo7OtPThYIsU=; b=bdIK3FnrWuwWB+Bwfz8wk6Iu3sT8JKMFhSDJk0p0bJWEXQRESgpmmduPSqTYXaKtmC aA9+Drn4hFDpICb7SiLjuOzMuu7NDkNfGwoqnT9fRKilHhVMBa2VPQnqZou8LmdB/UWw 23/h/aAA6sL1lEyBF2yNdO+VF+GmOw0fl+kWe03DhgZtS+YX+Tc2vGvjbig4+Stq0/9B yO9q5lquLefYjaB5CPQ31CrQ/wf69yTBQDL/qEvGqz9KbDXGNbGs2ROOltmMcpSHN8hE XiZ2cSPaCGcXGla6lJc6KMz2BeCzly/1/w6yNiqyZzw4UtN9I90kObuxRyu8jMeJTFuO w2BA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwuqnM2qhnQ2bixD6JIXeRTwrqax51TxuPaqyO8DDuP+yH5gp8j /AkpmhGhtgu0zjcL+rKyyXxmdauSJt7o/ryRe2r0KnS2w4h1BQbvhcqeMWI4 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFarZ6SAAPt9X6+CSPhkX0GvV4Y6PqIZyztnlXwS19iDKem2MhFUUt4sT3kUcQmZ5byb89NrQ== X-Received: by 2002:a81:af16:0:b0:607:a085:b434 with SMTP id n22-20020a81af16000000b00607a085b434mr944585ywh.8.1708652864945; Thu, 22 Feb 2024 17:47:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:1700:2c58:d080:bdf9:8e90:fd4e:18bc]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v62-20020a814841000000b00607b978c984sm3362966ywa.112.2024.02.22.17.47.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 22 Feb 2024 17:47:44 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Dave Cohen Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 20:47:34 -0500 Message-Id: <5DFF4A55-B465-4377-9213-8D032090244C@gmail.com> References: <673B3FF2-1FD8-4CB8-9726-70785B1CBFC0@pch.net> Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_techni?= =?utf-8?Q?cal_aspects_heard_this_time!?= , Brent Legg In-Reply-To: <673B3FF2-1FD8-4CB8-9726-70785B1CBFC0@pch.net> To: Bill Woodcock X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (21D61) Subject: Re: [NNagain] The Whys of the Wichita IXP Project X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 01:47:45 -0000 It sounds then like the sample of organizations I=E2=80=99ve worked with may= not be truly representative of the full sample. Nonetheless, it does appear= to me that the expansion rate is accelerating, and that datacenter operator= s are making efforts to attract IXPs into their facilities (with a couple of= notable exceptions where the operators themselves are attempting to be thei= r own IX) in a way that didn=E2=80=99t occur years ago.=20 =20 Dave Cohen craetdave@gmail.com > On Feb 22, 2024, at 7:51=E2=80=AFPM, Bill Woodcock wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >> On Feb 23, 2024, at 01:09, Dave Cohen wrote: >> Prior to roughly 2016-17, most IXs in the US that we worked with were in a= single site >=20 > The vast majority of IXPs are still in a single site, but all the ones wit= h normal switch-fabric extension policies are on a growth path to multiple s= ites, provided the markets they=E2=80=99re in are of sufficient size to supp= ort it. Both of those things have been the case for more than thirty years.= >=20 >> =E2=80=A6that site was often not a third-party facility, often a private R= &E oriented datacenter. >=20 > Can you explain in more words what you=E2=80=99re saying here? IXPs sprin= g up in all kinds of sites=E2=80=A6 Many of them are in closets of building= s which happen to have multiple ISPs already present because all of the ISPs= already have customers in the building. Some of them are in datacenters, a= nd some of those are =E2=80=9Cneutral=E2=80=9D datacenters, while others are= owned or operated by one of the participating networks, and others are gove= rnmental or academic. There=E2=80=99s a very wide diversity of IXP siting a= rrangements, and often individual IXPs are spread across several different k= inds of sites; that=E2=80=99s always been the case. >=20 > Over time, existing IXPs, as they grow, tend to spread across more sites; b= ut also, new IXPs form, which almost always form in a single location before= growing to multiple sites. IXPs that _start_ organically in multiple sites= simultaneously certainly aren=E2=80=99t common. >=20 > -Bill >=20