From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7EE13CB37 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2023 16:42:08 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1697056923; x=1697661723; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=FydEVleTjM51hGXoTkRjlmJz0bDquQap602rtvlaJtw=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=YCm0oSk90e2NRFHZ0ZT6RzrEQ++hCK9CliqCj+hEiaIv64s8Fyrq6f9EIOQVBUUB183eynjmen6 a3qypnqyz5l5WojwReXgNkBYn9F7pe2DfhYjKvFPq0KNhMHfnv4N5lF7g2BqJUM2GxgFIPNNSUJuG TC0ogA5LJjaHbTROg5tAURkErUzZdHS1hHNJf3PJGUfb55L1dp9HPxkrvOgIy5SpQnemXojAn+k6P c7hp++6P6V9N64FXRVLWRmTdR7IkgjpLyFht2gdRUcTQaqD9BnFWqKiaWTAFTv1rrmj2HvvtRAeVl nhFOZJl/9JFuJU0dC5gLwXVPk+oqj6o8vaYQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([84.157.45.139]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MAfUo-1qk6SZ2H84-00B3JG; Wed, 11 Oct 2023 22:42:03 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.4\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 22:42:01 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <604072FE-3B19-43BA-85B0-1BDC7B2169D2@gmx.de> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.4) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:dBaJmNnWZeSr+FpFMcObqjFrnJkbj4hihz7mIg6fMyXvl/TlrPy fHPTfnDnsIJx14lCGyk/T7uU3ulmhOgg/HDTkgeeHDqs261+v8GaAOk1qfY5iIvuzf9br0K SeoouAt6yIc96sIoi/iMmsdvHD8kzb5xr/tR4NiF9XMZloR2gBgfzbWXYzVcRgdJ3Alx6EZ lcJI9+BipatzUK8Hi8dnQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:wjLBpRnEEC4=;uka8nTSmvgojDTLA465UYI7AFNK VTQ2CLC7UE+HQnVySUFDhAoE2m3ab/8o40xWbaaOcrKdCXl/rlvlvGaKsl7lnBDeqYL3rc52G rfYarDeTZvXTwGZx8lHd5iBxdJy8Jbgf0Ys9Y2X43okGj/NvjZ07Y/3NEjBFR5zEkqIpxBlp5 VeXRtXcP+6qP2+S4dnQmEH05aUcSMN7+vOHmFS54vfHBNj/qvoNKU8VGA6/BZWttXmgL8LOXY CD3sTfgCFwJv5N/XvXnd18C++wOXm54gjgSTA3MAbDHtTmxPu+36/dIRfugX9WVF6bOlDjguL fvdz18AshIrtQ3RmX2jXXsbPbETSy+S8Axlg6G0wjv/fixTyQypXleebhL3YERJJ0eDz1HJwS mXp28J31wZLv/07IiEz1tQHgC8q5juCGLUB7QJdA22UgX/DXDjuLUxbeQH+SewgymKDxxKtd9 6FWhXWDFkCs5GKqFlrn9qR3tZP14MOrzhAAmClkQ++OlLq+nXMWJpDmNHT0kNnwrsai8Vo7Cw 7/IBotnBGUpSUG08ID8xF4H3lAKGG+Hm6g6Ih/UB1tHisVsXz15SA/aj80+4CshYqqYrUfTnU Fb4XE77BZ7eNyFbX1nYRa+M1gl2KGDyPkptslPRgBwEbLR8B2qdRBViYe3qEaBOOCOQJ++/gP rEzSh2eWkn45eJYodslKUp2WulrEGaVF6v7evYF8gzHXqixI+Gw/QJS9UGHmEfZhVD8xH+zCH hnBMQ3QO2sVL86bH4CwI4hZSBQqHSkcMB2pTLiSrKdt8uvJOrHwOu16TzVHnosiYY8w9jXg3A sW8+V29uBvRi/r2bm44nxn7kaq7HGd4nukUs/uuik8X8Jq7SpeRCen+ocxGA1ZElAt5eHUkv0 rIsSUNXKlQLAUZXowTBLsNxXSOleXYPlvlQo2w0GQ5N2x0RZBr1c0oYdMXVS+1XQrpE+9g+Ty 3lNNnciXr/iv1Jg3SjWX7nOV+T8= Subject: Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati? X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 20:42:09 -0000 Hi Jack, > On Oct 11, 2023, at 19:31, Jack Haverty via Nnagain = wrote: >=20 > A few days ago I made some comments about the idea of "educating" the = lawyers, politicians, and other smart, but not necessarily technically = adept, decision makers. Today I saw a news story about a recent FCC = action, to mandate "nutrition labels" on Internet services offered by = ISPs: >=20 > = https://cordcuttersnews.com/fcc-says-comcast-spectrum-att-must-start-displ= aying-the-true-cost-and-speed-of-their-internet-service-starting-april-202= 4/ >=20 > This struck me as anecdotal, but a good example of the need for = education. Although it's tempting and natural to look at existing = infrastructures as models for regulating a new one, IMHO the Internet = does not work like the Food/Agriculture infrastructure does. >=20 > For example, the new mandates require ISPs to "label" their products = with "nutritional" data including "typical" latency, upload, and = download speeds. They have until April 2024 to figure it out. I've = never encountered an ISP who could answer such questions - even the ones = I was involved in managing. Marketing can of course create an answer, = since "typical" is such a vague term. Figuring out how to attach the = physical label to their service product may be a problem. [SM] There are typically several ways to skin this specific cat = ;) One is e.g. for the regulator to supply their own reference platform = against which the contractually agree upon rates/latency/random loss = numbers are measured. In the EU the BEREC summarizes its recommendations = e.g. here: = https://www.berec.europa.eu/sites/default/files/files/document_register_st= ore/2022/6/BoR_%2822%29_72_NN_regulatory_assessment_methodology_final.pdf where it is especially recommended to measure against servers outside of = the ISP' networks... which makes a ton of sense for a product called = internet access service, and not ISP-intranet access service ;) Reading this document makes it clear that perfect is the enemy of the = good and/or achievable in this matter. > Such labels may not be very helpful to the end user struggling to find = an ISP that delivers the service needed for some interactive use (audio = or video conferencing, gaming, home automation, etc.) [SM] Sure. Now if the applicable law is amended to: a) allow the ISP to freely specify the rate numbers they promise to = customers (in the different plans) b) actually hold them accountable to deliver on these promised rates the whole thing starts to make some sense... (In Germany, the only = regulatory area where I looked close enough, the law gives end users the = right to immediate cancelation or to reduce the payment to be in = proportion to the ratio of achieved rate versus contracted rate). And = all of the ISP essentially follow the law, none went bankrupt because of = this or lost all of their customers as far as I know... The point is = such a scheme, while conceptually a bit unclean, can actually work = pretty well in practice. > Performance on the Internet depends on where the two endpoints are, = the physical path to get from one to the other, as well as the hardware, = software, current load, and other aspects of each endpoint, all outside = the ISPs' control or vision. Since the two endpoints can be on = different ISPs, perhaps requiring one or more additional internediate = ISPs, specifying a "typical" performance from all Points A to all Points = B is even more challenging. [SM] Sure, and since the product is internet access, ideally the = test servers would be located all over the network in diverse ASs, but = short of such an unobtainable perfect system it seems an acceptable = fudge to simply create a reference server system that is not hosted by = any eye-ball ISP and is well connected to all major transit suppliers = and/or important local IXs. > Switching to the transportation analogy, one might ask your local bus = or rail company what their typical time is to get from one city to = another. If the two cities involved happen to be on their rail or bus = network, perhaps you can get an answer, but it will still depend on = where the two endpoints are. If one or both cities are not on their = rail network, the travel time might have to include use of other = "networks" - bus, rental car, airplane, ship, etc. How long does it = typically take for you to get from any city on the planet to any other = city on the planet? [SM] We already hold transport companies accountable for extreme = delays... (ever got abandoned on an airport somewhere between your start = and end point for an additional over-night stay?) > IMHO, rules and regulations for the Internet need to reflect how the = Internet actually works. That's why I suggested a focus on education = for the decision makers. [SM] Sure education does work. however for the problem at hand = it might make sense to look at already deployed "solutions" to similar = problems... Regards Sebastian P.S.: I am not arguing the EU regulation is perfect in any way (and also = not completely free of lobby influence), but IMHO it clearly is better = than nothing, and might already be good enough. >=20 > Jack Haverty >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain