From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E42F23B29D for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 03:08:20 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1718867296; x=1719472096; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=mSiG5QKf/Bqp0GH1izZiWfNWP/jtaIjWxWtDaz2qqg4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=FrROzfzTAmFtSPQrSXc1neU2JrlbxXgbNSMKSrjk5RE1pwXYpM/s9FY2iciyPNmy NvuQcqDNyrrEG6IEkmoxcOdcCTfaIuqdSO9RsJGlqBgKvfOsM1ak5yo/++qj3V04R rDPX6y7Qi/lWz027EV3rfLQpdxXZdo6Wy47r+28tHhKTtBU0RG07g7vQOiFdDfIeb AvJHoriL1Wouq9AzdzvQ+bC0T4d0L4IFKBl6Bk08oZnGNntMk5WYBYDyeaYHpBKZi vy9mIzSdJL8IJnZ8it2i8yt+pRb6Jt+rkyCOZ9LvZ7tFmF/rOzji+lya4S7nhTP9W a3+fFAcEdOSG5jgyuA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M3DJv-1sNDe12vc5-00F8xm; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 09:08:16 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.600.62\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 09:08:05 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <62FCACDB-013F-4E4B-8FE5-A497E2C9C0C9@gmx.de> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.600.62) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:JJsQRUM4duoywjrpvyl3CTj+WulLIO3vr/KUm0vMvZHKIaB9R9j 8DrYhUeYi13tg4PeEjCC6bCji+wT1ukjl+X7TvUvreKlqS1ZKGiNrrHE4WYGKoPB+iM5EXr U7DKLBQENFtr350oZhwJxlWU4xxmnogBxSSipZE7+y1o327yfFDDmg/3sYJYL+Q20+pOm1W idE7xD3k/cid6iXBNeofA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:fPdL/HQQx6A=;GF8Ce7hFbR+SWIak/F1YW7Iu3Fp uXIETjLJ5XRNKy6jpljMqxAvvmguqAuze5imDaypXMVFH6/SLqeLz77czBZ6bfsGpMaD3LSiB IK+noxeCFeYa2Fw8c8u65Kx0tdsxrsvsTNqWXndhWVEELic7SDhoOkO2kwfxW0BC0tkrFjVLA UVZWgOvhOb7vdL3apo5Mp3uMNhn804UeO/3XNDoA/aAjs/H4joJt/jh4ACsdrnpGr36djhnrX MvQrcAQCJD5ifBlw8hQxHaqfmcuOBQ2Fd8Uz3aR9qd7IyK01d4Cm8Fw4qJHmI5b8ZUkvtJbxF Q1J3rHFta65lq8eq5QXTG969x8hdAJwJzHZ2topJSXr2Yjm4pRGhiRdjOubnKWiU5vDoDinor i49ztSznJ9F+2sbblPmXHxRP1iX7dIJc4aQ9CsBodkG6/7gcooiDIIfa/CD7sF+4CX3X/0YmY rN/PiGbqNJ8FU9p+KSP6Ld03Q09m/YfsqKzyfyi77Mwtefwfpto5OfKO3e67qh/DXe/cyh6GV HeYhPNXfVO61r7z6XPUeqckkrzyWGK6xKFEyas4UdwHJl3Z6s7F8w0jn5VQVUqDL7M4K8p/PX tgA7omTezRINmqixBgzd0QOaLqZ/ZrOIGxNcAoDEqsKgrUQVFkaOsNhLJucrARy0nxtzWWxBm lfoLz1LFA+md0LymqGQ4yFGAUPjuATrJNNXdamAD4TdSarLCsD03dQ8Tlhh7BxnxRsg5ZYGRj JIoykPORwon1HZujXHRlxvomDpL9PsppokSeWZbSvGu+A02Gg14IFqSOEV/cZ0+P1KW6/3g+p yZLiCGbnQFirKbomPs/4LOkk9onjFZKlXNOHGl4ezKrBE= Subject: Re: [NNagain] Carr blasts BEAD X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 07:08:21 -0000 Hi Bob, > On 20. Jun 2024, at 00:18, Robert McMahon via Nnagain = wrote: >=20 > False dichotomy. Fiber and wireless are the end game. +1, at least on the fiber part. Sure building out near-universal = infrastructure typically has a relative high up-front cost, but tends to = increase productivity over longer time frames#. Given that in the long = run it is going to be the society that will profit from it, I see no = reason why the society should not pay for the deployment... That however = IMHO is orthogonal to the "many of the goals could be achieved by better = software" argument, as that better software will also help on fiber = deployments* and can be useful for bridging gaps until the (slowish) = deployment reaches individual areas. #) Just look at other infrastructure: power lines, wast/waste-water = lines, gas pipelines, roads, the POTS network... getting near universal = roll-out for each was/is also a costly measure, and still the argument, = instead of building roads we should simply subsidise 4x4 off road = vehicles for people living in such areas hopefully is an obvious dud. Or = rather over emphasises the short term cost over the long term gains. = Capitalism in its stock market driven form typically lacks the stamina = to really go for the longer term gains and hence often it is left to the = tax payer to make such investments happen. And yes, thast comes with = quite some bean counting, pencil pushing and delays, but 'better late = then n *) Case in point, still popular GPON typically only offers 2.4/1.2 Gbps = segment capacity, with (max) segment size often 32 or 64 subscribers, = leaving only 2400/32 =3D 75 to 2400/64 =3D 37.5 Mbps of average capacity = per user. So during primetime GPON segments will likely see similar = disparities between capacity and demand as FWA segments, and will likely = desire the same counter measures. > The major fiber installers I know say they no longer pull copper, even = in houses. The pull strength and bend ratios of fiber now exceed all = others. Fiber is one and done. Fiber cables don't have capillary action = when submerged per rainstorms. Signal loss of copper at 100Gb/s is in dB = per inch. The sweet spot for optics considering all kpis including power = per bit delivered is 100G. Not doubting that at all, yet I can see that typical end-users will not = really be able to fill up such a pipe anytime soon; and I doubt that = end-users are more sensitive to $/bit than to total $, so a 100G = solution would need to come close to current prices for 1 or 2G5 Gbps = ethernet gear and that is including the optics. Not sure 100G switches = will become 'affordable' for mere end users any time soon.=20 > Fiber is less than 0.5 db over 2Km independent of modulation. Thin as = a hair and capacity abundant. It also is a tad more resistant to RF ingress than copper or wireless = networks... > Wireless is needed for the unleashing of devices and no more. Maybe = 29' like smoke detectors.=20 IMHO WiFi still has a way to come... but also will not go away, so I = agree (more grudgingly than to the fiber part). > Those that figure this out will lead and make for the future and have = meaningful impact. =20 Assuming they can actually make networking gear or are in a position to = create requirement lists for big customers of such gear, no? Regards Sebastian >=20 > Bob >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Jun 19, 2024, 2:22 PM le berger des photons via Nnagain = wrote: > maybe they'll pay some attention to you in 18 months when the only ISP = doing well will be ones that are either owned by the Rothschilds or = trade a month of internet for some eggs and a chicken. >=20 > On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 10:57=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Nnagain = wrote: > Some good rhetoric here: https://x.com/BrendanCarrFCC >=20 > I have been boggling at some of the hurdles required to get this = funding. I gave up on BEAD last year, as the goalposts seem to be = forever receding and mounted on unicorns dancing on cotton candy clouds. = I know there is more progress being made than meets the eye, but to me = it's in spite of BEAD, rather than because of it. ("in spite" meaning - = you are going to subsidize WHAT??)=20 >=20 > My pithy comment about the "fiber party". >=20 > Bead has provided employment to a lot of telephone polishers, = political hacks, and paper pushers. I tried to point out that many of = the goals could be achieved by better software on wireless networks; the = fiber party took it over. And oh! Did they party! >=20 > https://x.com/mtaht/status/1803510661093392667 >=20 > And for the records, I actually rather liked the ACP program. And = LibreQos passed 154 ISPs deploying it yesterday. >=20 > --=20 > = https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7203400057172180992/ > Donations Drive. > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain