From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from atl4mhob24.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob24.registeredsite.com [209.17.115.121]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C8DC3CB48 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2023 15:31:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mymail.myregisteredsite.com (jax4wmnode3b.mymail.myregisteredsite.com [209.237.134.215]) by atl4mhob24.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id 3AHKVoiO001821 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2023 15:31:51 -0500 Received: (qmail 15292 invoked by uid 80); 17 Nov 2023 20:31:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.100?) (jack@3kitty.org@76.137.180.175) by 209.237.134.154 with ESMTPA; 17 Nov 2023 20:31:50 -0000 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------DVlSLWzUKk4QVrr7Kg3NgWA0" Message-ID: <647406f6-9895-4b53-8cad-2e3183e8d723@3kitty.org> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2023 12:31:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <938D9D45-DADA-4291-BD8A-84E4257CEE49@apple.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Jack Haverty Autocrypt: addr=jack@3kitty.org; keydata= xsDNBGCm2psBDADGOWO8n9wfkDW9ZUEo8o+SZ5MU9us2il+fS4EFM/RaZFIbQ+P72bExzSd3 WnJdPfqO1O7Q+dRnvVO9+G2/9oT/uRZVaE05+SothzKZBv32HcZoUkdNZOTqSkdo3EwNPjid LLxX+dMBxMpR3pBdvGN8Z7lnZe6fV4QO2xtd58y3B33AVZJp+RuNwucby9dY2meyy2BJVKrx mKhYXAucVyg0ALVIchHt9UknVW4aLvQF+oMfzXVvCWeguW+DvbyazVceWGO7FSgUJ8ED3Ii7 xAR5zZJ1LASoMhG1ixg07P9Uy4ohV6c+c0yV9SY4yqhZ3+zN2cm9h/aXpwjSuiVVAJbK7zzb FjI+h89dbnaVQrLx6GikV0OVYqC6TCeMfCFZQAJLs1icxQi3BLL7O1fbTGatEfTgLa5nqfKq K/D/HlOCUeFxqZI8hXvT5dG4e1m3ilpF2/ytcWKSVg3d699UFntPv3sEbAQwwfXsnuD4Hem6 0Ao0/z41n8x1aeZE80FdkpEAEQEAAc0eSmFjayBIYXZlcnR5IDxqYWNrQDNraXR0eS5vcmc+ wsEJBBMBCAAzFiEEZLvMn5vmvTAlFEILdGzDIkA7jlAFAmCm2pwCGwMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsC BRYCAwEAAAoJEHRswyJAO45QuX0L/jOluv8fr/BmuEEQsWWGW6oARIbjDQrI93kXIJXuPnfp tGjkx/f1TMIzI2B9s/tejiYE7IZOhWbX1YvKF0UbkSJi50UyV9XtYRnLdD5TcksKB4luDF8S R+nj5WBm17Bp8qwriCMgA1jGL2wQ7J1KUw4Q/gsMcjhn/39PevswkriU2qqVplfCs9yTTMU5 SvtE2U9F3Y1ZINHn3kUysvxhRFd+Oh3PocWHmVE+hkII+qsra6z4eztDgoB+vqxmOJEdtvex GhT8OKu74DacguZVfu/AV+cwpX701sdjJrMyKjcv8uhFLM/E5gf6kSUAFxBVwe6pNDmAgmbS c0fAFrZjgXxNxxndpu/8OAUDVzKg+l5WJ0nWss9Q14BwA+FcoclO3lwzFu7jOiLvkm7jQkFB o+p8Owe4iAED1KK/aocIa/RiD4sZ3KXUJ92kkemZ1Qe2XpFVdzxaQDG0huNkc5Mie9rdt62O Ae+5cYdPeWmBVn+pFNs5H09kQQbVR5pUxe2Aps7AzQRgptqcAQwAzzougHNMFr/O/L8HnNJW 1YyOuX0PEVNUXQPwkxKuD8bAXsPr4Hv1a+840ByesiJSadhQgVSMruRqoQC5tTkbEWkqlfDW waNAdqCJOXl2T6gtK7RpcHNx7+/du/gCAhHOXqH1Qfs0Zi3YEbR/kQFRP3wD4GiCvHSny8zJ X9plIHqQGoE5DePNAtE2KimbFMsjguqJgq5x0tMf3qEaMNd0IGTStGpcC49iss71slotH091 Y1Yo9CpzL6rj8IP0BfssEujAvf3Gbf1oi92JRE3s2humFDfPvSlHmRIfWPQ4qFOw1zmlzsV1 eg83gErKbjaDdkbwQA85RTmMVKNVvonM80WB6jAg8tlJ5VlYlpbzASpJRNj+FL1LLBQxCbPU eFwrzqYgNvtdKR7j5nTgdndCxq+2aws/aAjdL10S8yeH7ZOpNPzjDJfMSt/L1O25zPUhXdQC 9AZNYsfyV7rf+POEgVpIEth1fT9WbmS0rZxRd/+y628n31GicbA+teN890vdABEBAAHCwPYE GAEIACAWIQRku8yfm+a9MCUUQgt0bMMiQDuOUAUCYKbanQIbDAAKCRB0bMMiQDuOUF1LC/4q 4pLtmDt6TIET2H7zGj5ie3ng7kC7YqtFPYwgLQzs9WeqQ/5WowEmHOPonBcqhGbtDj22GebQ 7w0RoUHb+aXsbC85I/C+nWgT1ZcfMBTHGlBcIQvOCNG18g87Ha9jgD0HnW4bRUkZmGMpP0Yd TLM+PBNu41AK6z82VPQrfTuPKqwAAS2FK/RpF2xB7rjpETzIPl9Dj9EAkRbviURIg0BQkmej l02FLzGmlTfBIDHBdEgzvD71Z5H9BP8DAbxBzonSTzx/KZyv7njSUzdVLW+5O/WzPgb4Qt4I jQd66LS9HWS1G7AcLjiSQAIf8v7JkX3NwtN+NGX5cmt2p0e9FOOKWXVgCIgPN3/712EEGAgq UUxuPEBD5DrRCgjZL40eHxQza2BAhoVoWopUCGZdCCZJP3iF7818wIph0U393DELG9NAGLJa qkoA8KBimXp9Rd2QvpA864JRy/REoEOEF9lm3clriLyEqaL/VMIQRhl/VSkUuez4Wr68eHus TFdwePg= In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [NNagain] A quick report from the WISPA conference X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2023 20:31:52 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------DVlSLWzUKk4QVrr7Kg3NgWA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/17/23 11:27, Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote: > one of the things we really wished existed was a standardized way to > test latency and throughput to routers. It would be super helpful if > there was a standard in consumer routers that allowed users to both ping > and fetch 0kB fils from their routers, and also run download/upload > tests. Back when I was involved in operating a network, we tried to track latency and throughput by standard ping and related tests.  We discovered that, in addition to the network conditions, the results were often dependent on the particular equipment and software involved at the time.   Some companies treated ping traffic (e.g., anything directed to the "echo" port) as low priority since it was obviously (to them) less important than any other traffic.   Others treated such traffic as high priority - it made their results in review articles look better. In another case we discovered one brand of desktop computer was achieved much higher throughputs over the net than similar products from other manufacturers.  It took some serious technical investigation but we eventually discovered that the high throughput was achieved by violating the Ethernet specification.   The offending vendor didn't follow the rules about timing.  But their test results looked much better than the competition. IMHO the root of the problem is that you can not assume much about what any software and hardware are doing.  There are lots of specs, standards, and mandates in RFCs or even governmental rules and regulations.  But lacking any kind of testing or certification, it's difficult to tell if those "standards" are actually being followed. If someone, technical organization or government regulator, declares or legislates some protocol, algorithm, or behavior to be a required "standard", it should be accompanied by mechanisms and processes for testing to verify that the standard is implemented correctly and is actually used, and certification so that purchasers are informed. Jack Haverty --------------DVlSLWzUKk4QVrr7Kg3NgWA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/17/23 11:27, Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote:
one of the things we really wished existed was a standardized way to 
test latency and throughput to routers. It would be super helpful if 
there was a standard in consumer routers that allowed users to both ping
 and fetch 0kB fils from their routers, and also run download/upload 
tests.

Back when I was involved in operating a network, we tried to track latency and throughput by standard ping and related tests.  We discovered that, in addition to the network conditions, the results were often dependent on the particular equipment and software involved at the time.   Some companies treated ping traffic (e.g., anything directed to the "echo" port) as low priority since it was obviously (to them) less important than any other traffic.   Others treated such traffic as high priority - it made their results in review articles look better. 

In another case we discovered one brand of desktop computer was achieved much higher throughputs over the net than similar products from other manufacturers.  It took some serious technical investigation but we eventually discovered that the high throughput was achieved by violating the Ethernet specification.   The offending vendor didn't follow the rules about timing.  But their test results looked much better than the competition.

IMHO the root of the problem is that you can not assume much about what any software and hardware are doing.  There are lots of specs, standards, and mandates in RFCs or even governmental rules and regulations.  But lacking any kind of testing or certification, it's difficult to tell if those "standards" are actually being followed.  If someone, technical organization or government regulator, declares or legislates some protocol, algorithm, or behavior to be a required "standard", it should be accompanied by mechanisms and processes for testing to verify that the standard is implemented correctly and is actually used, and certification so that purchasers are informed.

Jack Haverty
--------------DVlSLWzUKk4QVrr7Kg3NgWA0--