From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C521D3CB37 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2023 16:59:32 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1697057954; x=1697662754; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=J5gihg2Rk6w0tHRGYqvEbq4wAePfCeRqkj56YATyTqE=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=aWK44sL3o6eiPMqzalJBsy4pypDyPK6oargtNcGIa/c9W/yWYrjcXsjiZLRx38W3Y5PSeEMz6FO jk4m5jmKKkfpdQhta30h35LwSHO98slHNImW8QlA4LHgBO3LWUXmblwabh3WSgmEuRhzdBYFTAkOB QWdUMcYOsDLVIUYyjAJKl8cP5dpPfLhK6d6qW8155rdYBBAt1xr3bYZR5UV6G6905StfN6hRZ2ksj 2vMqHn00yumpoYoHEcu6eY0K8VrK43LWYQBogDz4pbr+3xxlLjTKcrKayPA8uP+ROIodzW8VkUgRx nDPsJ4BIot4j9tZv5WOhNJGSoH4e1gQnUJHg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([84.157.45.139]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MtOGU-1riDtM2JdW-00unYJ; Wed, 11 Oct 2023 22:59:14 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.4\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 22:59:13 +0200 Cc: dickroy@alum.mit.edu, rjmcmahon , Nick Feamster Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6848B607-CC9A-4419-BCAE-E1588BA43F64@gmx.de> References: <2f0395e99add7014924d288f4569b87b@rjmcmahon.com> To: =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.4) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:JG9GWQwBaW6+BYmMEtAIdk3WIuzJ/PUhgvLSOCE6qhoSnjZFa0n Olb9xkJtjpC7l5bntwW0KaemmBbktARfgCFGqCI0sHI4Z0dpdKbu1lP2zwA/el0VPPVjFv3 hdQSyoHdP4iOla+GOON8ggzsaiQiZ/LZvQCcqIf+hHnIjeHeIKIm5YrA/4rvbVs2kN9uzz5 p6KsKHTaVQ9m1nkRggZdA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:m9AwkGNQNyo=;0hYdJrR3zoUZOsySSB7wTnYhu6E jgpjhfl+B27VSTVQE4loDEMyphULFJW2AlCLwXe5lSq0zc+WBOHrdqNUBW1mN8c74T/8nY0S5 86IcFY144SWCK257eYtp7zEwwARYMrrgNh8SlfvnMFj9AITmZu3dDzXoMiLJywZTNYJn/Tu+m MVRDRk2VzNQ//sVYJHZxxTnGdKUsyFfExWkkdPl7V+wO8r5kf3OTlgWm5a4cVcxjgWkt1+dQl pct+fYNr3+TKALPg6TpIvqJrzNl3ndgUvrCDZHH6ECPfjzR8tjDDPZ5GCRjRlQZIaDx650JKg NqKLgawSzddJfjG7+Z4v9Dyn3X5NChgKCwM5CC27ja7y/wQr6yEEFPGWQYV1a4FoMMzo6Lwbi Nz1IPrLxpOD4TFss+eZm0IkOtF+WeL0j2EzKGOIXdORfKjU16Bl/t3nGREsZ7KSMGmjpF3Vc4 7t5h27REVp6yeiqFKRrFZkY+ju1ss6NT5WF40WZa2oXVOkHN7zwpRMoHFFRNFrzVzfU+ruyO7 CJ4fGM112VEgLoPYtTgt1lybghWtSDGHARB42vfln4WYrRCTVKwO+2lXWEt4ORCky0dirBnF4 a6rtkXxU//SwbATIbiZhf9NZjC1R/+gAtZAQvA/hIDJw+sJvPOEmJVtdaw5MWKJxsoyQFdhQI HahxgJM9PyNvETK4pUq9Uahg5yR5ih4xlL0I5Ki7JbnucQ80e/wCTt7pxjGAM3NPJ+rxA7dUa l5X+c0BP8UyFcFjRtqm5oxmw8RVwqdc+Q/xyT5PQ8GIzGNcQkXhBHNQ+W9ZfaU/2FFV1GDaV5 RYY9EG4nS5fPmVff2yjIy4OG9gUZfRLvHUG2M/2fDkkG/IkFOEa3ejdDiVp6XGsu4uL6uxfva h1irKyxVXrCCY0FVdx3b1BvO8ztc0icGc+6d/qjH+ed2zWQyMqc9rapG6j/wJtNSk53kUDWOm tOg43ByK/GFlbKvxlOz+I3EDATg= Subject: Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati? X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 20:59:33 -0000 Hi Bob, > On Oct 11, 2023, at 20:49, rjmcmahon via Nnagain = wrote: >=20 > Yes, EDCAs are multidimensional. The coupling of EDCA to a DSCP field, = Access Class (AC) or MAC queue is just an engineering thing. The EDCA is = really just for an upcoming access arbitration and doesn't have to be = held constant. And the values are under control of the WiFi BSS manager. >=20 > What's a WiFi BSS manager one might ask? It's an unfilled role that = the standards engineers assumed would occur, yet are networking roles = are under staffed all over the planet. The default EDCAs are just some = made up numbers that have no simulation or other backing - though many = think they're gold or something - which they're not. >=20 > There are so many things at play just for WiFi performance yet alone = e2e. I wouldn't know where to start for a consumer label. Even marketing = terms like WiFi 6, 6e and 7 seem to mostly add confusion. >=20 > Then engineers design for the tests because what else can they do? And = the tests struggle to represent any kind of reality. Labels are likely = going to have a similar affect. [SM] And this is why it matters how such labels are to be = enforced... if the capacity numbers can be checked by end users against = reference servers in a adifferent AS than any good-faith effort of = engineers to make the test work sufficiently well will also help with = general internet access. With good-faith I mean I exclude stunts like = ISPs disabling the per user traffic shaper for the duration of a = detected test, or treat test traffic with higher priority... > Even the basics of capacity and latency are not understood by = consumers. [SM] There are efforts under way to make end users more = conscious about latency issues though, like apple's RPM. > The voice engineers created mean opinion scores which I don't think = consumers ever cared about. [SM] Why should they if they can directly judge the quality of = their VoIP calls? Sure engineers need something easier to come by than = asking end users about perceived quality and hence invented a system to = essentially predict user judgements based on a few measurable = parameters. But as far as i understand MOS is a simulation of end users = that is better suited to the normal engineering process than doing = psychoacoustic experiments with end-users, no? > Then we talk about quality of experience (QoE) as if it were a = mathematical term, which it isn't. [SM] Measuring experinence, aka subjective perception, is simply = a hard problem. Regards Sebastian >=20 > Bob >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On = Behalf >> Of rjmcmahon via Nnagain >> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2023 11:18 AM >> To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects >> heard this time! >> Cc: rjmcmahon; Nick Feamster >> Subject: Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati? >> I've added many metrics around latency and one way delays (OWD) in >> iperf >> 2. There is no single type of latency, nor are the measurements >> scalars. >> (Few will understand violin plots or histograms on labels) >> On top of that, a paced flow will have a different e2e latency >> histogram >> than an as fast as possible (AFAP) flow. They also drive different >> WiFi >> behaviors. Hence, it's not just a simple arrival rate and service = time >> anymore, even for queuing analysis. (Though Little's Law is pretty >> cool >> and useful for displacement ratings) Throw in BSS managed EDCAs and >> all >> bets are off. >> _[RR] Wouldn=E2=80=99t the issue of EDCAs (i.e.different queues for >> different priority classes with different tx parameters for each), >> just make the analysis (more) =E2=80=9Cmultidimensional=E2=80=9D? = Might it be >> possible to model such scenarios as N different collocated >> bridges/routers), one for each access category? Does any of what I >> just said make any sense in this context? __J __J_ >> _ _ >> _RR_ >> Bob >>> I think y'all are conflating two different labels here. The >> nutrition >>> label was one effort, now being deploye, the other is cybersecurity, >>> now being discussed. >>> On the nutrition front... >>> We successfully fought against "packet loss" being included on the >>> nutrition label, but as ghu is my witness, I have no idea if a >> formal >>> method for declaring "typical latency" was ever formally derived. >> = https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-requires-broadband-providers-display-labe= ls-help-consumers >>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 10:39=E2=80=AFAM David Bray, PhD via Nnagain >>> wrote: >>>> I was at a closed-door event discussing these labels about two >> weeks >>>> ago (right before the potential government shutdown/temporarily >>>> averted for now) - and it was non-attribution, so I can only >> describe >>>> my comments: >>>> (1) the labels risk missing the reality that the Internet and >>>> cybersecurity are not steady state, which begs the question how >> will >>>> they be updated >>>> (2) the labels say nothing about how - even if the company promises >> to >>>> keep your data private and secure - how good their security >> practices >>>> are internal to the company? Or what if the company is bought in 5 >>>> years? >>>> (3) they use QR-codes to provide additional info, yet we know >> QR-codes >>>> can be sent to bad links so what if someone replaces a label with a >>>> bad link such that the label itself becomes an exploit? >>>> I think the biggest risks is these we be rolled out, some exploit >> will >>>> occur that the label didn't consider, consumers will be angry they >>>> weren't "protected" and now we are even in worse shape because the >>>> public's trust has gone further down hill, they angry at the >>>> government, and the private sector feels like the time and energy >> they >>>> spent on the labels was for naught? >>>> There's also the concern about how do startups roll-out such a >> label >>>> for their tech in the early iteration phase? How do they afford to >> do >>>> the extra work for the label vs. a big company (does this become a >>>> regulatory moat?) >>>> And let's say we have these labels. Will only consumers with the >> money >>>> to purchase the more expensive equipment that has more privacy and >>>> security features buy that one - leaving those who cannot afford >>>> privacy and security bad alternatives? >>>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 1:31=E2=80=AFPM Jack Haverty via Nnagain >>>> wrote: >>>>> A few days ago I made some comments about the idea of "educating" >> the >>>>> lawyers, politicians, and other smart, but not necessarily >>>>> technically >>>>> adept, decision makers. Today I saw a news story about a recent >> FCC >>>>> action, to mandate "nutrition labels" on Internet services offered >> by >>>>> ISPs: >> = https://cordcuttersnews.com/fcc-says-comcast-spectrum-att-must-start-displ= aying-the-true-cost-and-speed-of-their-internet-service-starting-april-202= 4/ >>>>> This struck me as anecdotal, but a good example of the need for >>>>> education. Although it's tempting and natural to look at existing >>>>> infrastructures as models for regulating a new one, IMHO the >> Internet >>>>> does not work like the Food/Agriculture infrastructure does. >>>>> For example, the new mandates require ISPs to "label" their >> products >>>>> with "nutritional" data including "typical" latency, upload, and >>>>> download speeds. They have until April 2024 to figure it out. >> I've >>>>> never encountered an ISP who could answer such questions - even >> the >>>>> ones >>>>> I was involved in managing. Marketing can of course create an >>>>> answer, >>>>> since "typical" is such a vague term. Figuring out how to attach >> the >>>>> physical label to their service product may be a problem. >>>>> Such labels may not be very helpful to the end user struggling to >>>>> find >>>>> an ISP that delivers the service needed for some interactive use >>>>> (audio >>>>> or video conferencing, gaming, home automation, etc.) >>>>> Performance on the Internet depends on where the two endpoints >> are, >>>>> the >>>>> physical path to get from one to the other, as well as the >> hardware, >>>>> software, current load, and other aspects of each endpoint, all >>>>> outside >>>>> the ISPs' control or vision. Since the two endpoints can be on >>>>> different ISPs, perhaps requiring one or more additional >> internediate >>>>> ISPs, specifying a "typical" performance from all Points A to all >>>>> Points >>>>> B is even more challenging. >>>>> Switching to the transportation analogy, one might ask your local >> bus >>>>> or >>>>> rail company what their typical time is to get from one city to >>>>> another. If the two cities involved happen to be on their rail >> or >>>>> bus >>>>> network, perhaps you can get an answer, but it will still depend >> on >>>>> where the two endpoints are. If one or both cities are not on >> their >>>>> rail network, the travel time might have to include use of other >>>>> "networks" - bus, rental car, airplane, ship, etc. How long does >> it >>>>> typically take for you to get from any city on the planet to any >>>>> other >>>>> city on the planet? >>>>> IMHO, rules and regulations for the Internet need to reflect how >> the >>>>> Internet actually works. That's why I suggested a focus on >> education >>>>> for the decision makers. >>>>> Jack Haverty >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain