From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail14.out.titan.email (mail14.out.titan.email [3.64.226.208]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7A073B29D for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2024 15:11:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.out.titan.email (ip-10-10-85-123.eu-central-1.compute.internal [10.10.85.123]) by smtp-out.titan.email (Postfix) with ESMTP id B998E1203D0 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2024 20:11:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp-out.flockmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out.flockmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 577E660108; Tue, 27 Feb 2024 20:11:11 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; bh=BO4R29o2sTCVs1RvN/ZRsm6Bk66Mi24Ox1lGbt3rHuM=; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=3kitty.org; h=message-id:to:in-reply-to:subject:cc:references:from:date:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to; q=dns/txt; s=titan1; t=1709064671; v=1; b=TW5a/blP/h1IJAOfKle1pCbAcRxyDXghyjAy4d9m1dFm24VNDn9B9jVziIv2vyYNd6JCrjOj HCPuAqwpJIzOKWAx35+jj3Oo80kwYXAyY7kVoBIw75+1pghq58rC5WfQWK5q6gdoPvcmWBUT8Cz HiZ5dbsqriJ/b4TQ2gdQxXbg= Received: from [192.168.1.100] (c-76-137-180-175.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [76.137.180.175]) by smtp-out.flockmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C507B6004C; Tue, 27 Feb 2024 20:11:10 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <698e2f7e-e174-474d-814c-64dca7ca9a87@3kitty.org> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 12:11:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: rjmcmahon Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspe?= =?UTF-8?Q?cts_heard_this_time!?= References: <3d808d9df1a6929ecfba495e75b4fc1b@rjmcmahon.com> <09af7b4f2ff73657a1d1b24db3d23fac@rjmcmahon.com> <40cb4962-6c95-44b2-96b8-ee68a7c16b1f@3kitty.org> Content-Language: en-US Feedback-ID: :jack@3kitty.org:3kitty.org:flockmailId From: Jack Haverty Autocrypt: addr=jack@3kitty.org; keydata= xsDNBGCm2psBDADGOWO8n9wfkDW9ZUEo8o+SZ5MU9us2il+fS4EFM/RaZFIbQ+P72bExzSd3 WnJdPfqO1O7Q+dRnvVO9+G2/9oT/uRZVaE05+SothzKZBv32HcZoUkdNZOTqSkdo3EwNPjid LLxX+dMBxMpR3pBdvGN8Z7lnZe6fV4QO2xtd58y3B33AVZJp+RuNwucby9dY2meyy2BJVKrx mKhYXAucVyg0ALVIchHt9UknVW4aLvQF+oMfzXVvCWeguW+DvbyazVceWGO7FSgUJ8ED3Ii7 xAR5zZJ1LASoMhG1ixg07P9Uy4ohV6c+c0yV9SY4yqhZ3+zN2cm9h/aXpwjSuiVVAJbK7zzb FjI+h89dbnaVQrLx6GikV0OVYqC6TCeMfCFZQAJLs1icxQi3BLL7O1fbTGatEfTgLa5nqfKq K/D/HlOCUeFxqZI8hXvT5dG4e1m3ilpF2/ytcWKSVg3d699UFntPv3sEbAQwwfXsnuD4Hem6 0Ao0/z41n8x1aeZE80FdkpEAEQEAAc0eSmFjayBIYXZlcnR5IDxqYWNrQDNraXR0eS5vcmc+ wsEJBBMBCAAzFiEEZLvMn5vmvTAlFEILdGzDIkA7jlAFAmCm2pwCGwMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsC BRYCAwEAAAoJEHRswyJAO45QuX0L/jOluv8fr/BmuEEQsWWGW6oARIbjDQrI93kXIJXuPnfp tGjkx/f1TMIzI2B9s/tejiYE7IZOhWbX1YvKF0UbkSJi50UyV9XtYRnLdD5TcksKB4luDF8S R+nj5WBm17Bp8qwriCMgA1jGL2wQ7J1KUw4Q/gsMcjhn/39PevswkriU2qqVplfCs9yTTMU5 SvtE2U9F3Y1ZINHn3kUysvxhRFd+Oh3PocWHmVE+hkII+qsra6z4eztDgoB+vqxmOJEdtvex GhT8OKu74DacguZVfu/AV+cwpX701sdjJrMyKjcv8uhFLM/E5gf6kSUAFxBVwe6pNDmAgmbS c0fAFrZjgXxNxxndpu/8OAUDVzKg+l5WJ0nWss9Q14BwA+FcoclO3lwzFu7jOiLvkm7jQkFB o+p8Owe4iAED1KK/aocIa/RiD4sZ3KXUJ92kkemZ1Qe2XpFVdzxaQDG0huNkc5Mie9rdt62O Ae+5cYdPeWmBVn+pFNs5H09kQQbVR5pUxe2Aps7AzQRgptqcAQwAzzougHNMFr/O/L8HnNJW 1YyOuX0PEVNUXQPwkxKuD8bAXsPr4Hv1a+840ByesiJSadhQgVSMruRqoQC5tTkbEWkqlfDW waNAdqCJOXl2T6gtK7RpcHNx7+/du/gCAhHOXqH1Qfs0Zi3YEbR/kQFRP3wD4GiCvHSny8zJ X9plIHqQGoE5DePNAtE2KimbFMsjguqJgq5x0tMf3qEaMNd0IGTStGpcC49iss71slotH091 Y1Yo9CpzL6rj8IP0BfssEujAvf3Gbf1oi92JRE3s2humFDfPvSlHmRIfWPQ4qFOw1zmlzsV1 eg83gErKbjaDdkbwQA85RTmMVKNVvonM80WB6jAg8tlJ5VlYlpbzASpJRNj+FL1LLBQxCbPU eFwrzqYgNvtdKR7j5nTgdndCxq+2aws/aAjdL10S8yeH7ZOpNPzjDJfMSt/L1O25zPUhXdQC 9AZNYsfyV7rf+POEgVpIEth1fT9WbmS0rZxRd/+y628n31GicbA+teN890vdABEBAAHCwPYE GAEIACAWIQRku8yfm+a9MCUUQgt0bMMiQDuOUAUCYKbanQIbDAAKCRB0bMMiQDuOUF1LC/4q 4pLtmDt6TIET2H7zGj5ie3ng7kC7YqtFPYwgLQzs9WeqQ/5WowEmHOPonBcqhGbtDj22GebQ 7w0RoUHb+aXsbC85I/C+nWgT1ZcfMBTHGlBcIQvOCNG18g87Ha9jgD0HnW4bRUkZmGMpP0Yd TLM+PBNu41AK6z82VPQrfTuPKqwAAS2FK/RpF2xB7rjpETzIPl9Dj9EAkRbviURIg0BQkmej l02FLzGmlTfBIDHBdEgzvD71Z5H9BP8DAbxBzonSTzx/KZyv7njSUzdVLW+5O/WzPgb4Qt4I jQd66LS9HWS1G7AcLjiSQAIf8v7JkX3NwtN+NGX5cmt2p0e9FOOKWXVgCIgPN3/712EEGAgq UUxuPEBD5DrRCgjZL40eHxQza2BAhoVoWopUCGZdCCZJP3iF7818wIph0U393DELG9NAGLJa qkoA8KBimXp9Rd2QvpA864JRy/REoEOEF9lm3clriLyEqaL/VMIQRhl/VSkUuez4Wr68eHus TFdwePg= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------aIujqQnHy2GimVaTojKQX26y" X-F-Verdict: SPFVALID X-Titan-Src-Out: 1709064671240826815.4256.3431579994347809692@prod-use1-smtp-out1001. X-CMAE-Score: 0 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=D5dBKORj c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=65de41df a=cdvcmBiFVbz+0Uto4GLkPg==:117 a=cdvcmBiFVbz+0Uto4GLkPg==:17 a=CEWIc4RMnpUA:10 a=13zjGPudsaEWiJwPRgMA:9 a=kurRqvosAAAA:8 a=doUQZJtgAAAA:8 a=vnREMb7VAAAA:8 a=GVOmBQAAAAAA:20 a=VhopHIYIAAAA:8 a=9wEFEmgGAAAA:8 a=U7_ZthDDAAAA:8 a=c96L_96lUsTOD0lngpUA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=usUTcz4nAAAA:8 a=flVa_hUfANqoWDGNEC0A:9 a=mlQoJlU3r2kXrTvX:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=lqcHg5cX4UMA:10 a=mVcgwxjBTkr3zjpDlhIA:9 a=FfaGCDsud1wA:10 a=HcMFMq_ZySpIy7UE7esA:9 a=kbxRQ_lfPIoQnHsAj2-A:22 a=d0-0EwFVFT64L02gzcZV:22 a=MWj7j3wg__VA2-K6Jgv6:22 a=URuH0njPyasT08JpGQTJ:22 a=9JDB30BYp0WKznqG0cJI:22 a=MqnEBYhnR1GEXjMu-uAJ:22 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Subject: Re: [NNagain] [M-Lab-Discuss] The FCC 2024 Section 706 Report, GN Docket No. 22-270 is out! X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 20:11:13 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------aIujqQnHy2GimVaTojKQX26y Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0iKqkgh2GhWJ0iExj93phE3T"; protected-headers="v1" From: Jack Haverty To: rjmcmahon Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspe?= =?UTF-8?Q?cts_heard_this_time!?= Message-ID: <698e2f7e-e174-474d-814c-64dca7ca9a87@3kitty.org> Subject: Re: [NNagain] [M-Lab-Discuss] The FCC 2024 Section 706 Report, GN Docket No. 22-270 is out! 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Measuring and monitoring Wifi behavior isn't necessary or sufficient.=C2=A0 Same with Starlink or whatever else comes along in = the future.

The architecture of the Internet places different mechanisms, that in past times were contained in the switching equipment, now at many different places along a data path.=C2=A0 Much of the mechanism is ev= en in the users' devices themselves, which make all sorts of decisions about datagram size, acknowledgements, retransmission, discarding duplicates, et al.=C2=A0 Those mechanisms interact with the decisions= being made in network equipment such as switches.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The ove= rall behavior dictates what the end users see as behavior and reliability of "the net" as they experience it.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The performance of th= e overall system is influenced by the interaction of its many pieces.

My point was that to manage network service ("network" being defined by the users), you have to monitor and measure performance as seen by the users, as close to the keyboard/mouse/screen/whatever as you can get.=C2=A0 That's why we decided to require a computer of some ki= nd on each users' LAN environment, so we could experience and measure what they were likely experiencing, and use our measurements of switches, circuits, etc. to analyze and fix problems.=C2=A0=C2=A0 It = was also helpful to have a database of the metrics captured during previous "normal" network activity, to use as comparisons.

As one example, I remember one event when a momentary glitch on a transpacific circuit would cause a flurry of activity as TCPs in the users' computers compensated, and would settle back to a steady state after a few minutes.=C2=A0 But users complained that their file= transfers were now taking much longer than usual.=C2=A0 After our pok= ing and prodding, using those remote computers as tools to see what the users were experiencing, we discovered that everything was operating as expected, except that every datagram was being transmitted twice and the duplicates discarded at the destination.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The TCP retransmission mechanisms had settled into a new stable state.

To the network switches, the datagrams all seeemed OK, but there was significantly more traffic than usual.=C2=A0 No one was monitoring al= l those user devices out on the LANs so no one except the users noticed anything wrong.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Eventually another glitch on the = circuit would cause another flurry of activity and perhaps settle back into the desired state where datagrams only got sent once.

We monitored whatever we could using SNMP to the routers and computers that had implemented such things, and we used our remote computers to also collect data from the users' perspective.=C2=A0=C2=A0= Often we could tell a LAN manager that some particular deviceat his/her site was having problems, by looking for behavior that differed from the "normal" historical behavior from a week or so earlier.

It would be interesting for example to collect metrics from switches about "buffer occupancy" and "transit time" (I don't recall if any MIB in SNMP had such metrics), and correlate that with TCP metrics such as retransmission behavior and duplicate detection.

Jack



On 2/27/24 09:48, rjmcmahon wrote:
=
Hi Jack= ,

On LAN probes & monitors; I've been told that 90% of users devices are now wirelessly connected so the concept of connecting to a common wave guide to measure or observe user information & flow state isn't viable. A WiFi AP could provide its end state but wireless channels' states are non-trivial and the APs prioritize packet forwarding at L2 over state collection. I suspect a fully capable AP that could record per quintuple and RF channels' states would be too expensive. This is part of the reason why our industry and policy makers need to define the key performance metrics well.

Bob
Yes, latency is complicated....=C2=A0 Bac= k when I was involved in the
early Internet (early 1980s), we knew that latency was an issue
requiring much further research, but we figured that meanwhile
problems could be avoided by keeping traffic loads well below capacity
while the appropriate algorithms could be discovered by the engineers
(I was one...).=C2=A0 Forty years later, it seems like it's still= a
research topic.

Years later in the 90s I was involved in operating an international
corporate intranet.=C2=A0 We quickly learned that keeping the hum= an users
happy required looking at more than the routers and circuits between
them.=C2=A0 With much of the "reliability mechanisms" of TCP et a= l now
located in the users' computers rather than the network switches,
evaluating users' experience with "the net" required measurements from
the users' perspective.

To do that, we created a policy whereby every LAN attached to the
long-haul backbone had to have a computer on that LAN to which we had
remote access.=C2=A0=C2=A0 That enabled us to perform "ping" test= s and also
collect data about TCP behavior (duplicates, retransmissions, etc.)
using SNMP, etherwatch, et al.=C2=A0=C2=A0 It was not unusual for= the users'
data to indicate that "the net", as they saw it, was misbehaving while
the network data, as seen by the operators, indicated that all the
routers and circuits were working just fine.

If the government regulators want to keep the users happy, IMHO they
need to understand this.

Jack Haverty

On 2/26/24 16:25, rjmcmahon wrote:

On top of all that, the latency responses tend to be non parametric
and may need full pdfs/cdfs along with non-parametric statistical
process controls. Attached is an example from many years ago which
was a firmware bug that sometimes delayed packet processing,
creating a second node in the pdf.

Engineers and their algorithms can be this way it seems.

Bob
I didn't study the whole report, but I didn't notice any metrics
associated with *variance* of latency or bandwidth.=C2=A0 It's common for

vendors to play games ("Lies, damn lies, and statistics!") to make
their metrics look good.=C2=A0=C2=A0 A metric of latency that s= ays something
like "99% less than N milliseconds" doesn't necessarily translate
into
an acceptable user performance.

It's also important to look at the specific techniques used for
taking
measurements.=C2=A0 For example, if a measurement is performed every
fifteen minutes, extrapolating the metric as representative of all
the
time between measurements can also lead to a metric judgement which
doesn't reflect the reality of what the user actually experiences.

In addition, there's a lot of mechanism between the ISPs' handling
of
datagrams and the end-user.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The users' experience i= s affected by
how
all of that mechanism interacts as underlying network behavior
changes.=C2=A0 When a TCP running in some host decides it needs= to
retransmit, or an interactive audio/video session discards datagrams

because they arrive too late to be useful, the user sees
unacceptable
performance even though the network operators may think everything
is
running fine.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Measurements from the end-users' pers= pective might
indicate performance is quite different from what measurements at
the
ISP level suggest.

Gamers are especially sensitive to variance, but it will also apply
to
interactive uses such as might occur in telemedicine or remote
operations.=C2=A0 A few years ago I helped a friend do some tes= ts for a
gaming situation and we discovered that the average latency was
reasonably low, but occasionally, perhaps a few times per hour,
latency would increase to 10s of seconds.

In a game, that often means the player loses.=C2=A0 In a remote= surgery
it
may mean horrendous outcomes.=C2=A0 As more functionality is performed
"in
the cloud" such situations will become increasingly common.

Jack Haverty

On 2/26/24 12:02, rjmcmahon via Nnagain wrote:

Thanks for sharing this. I'm trying to find out what are the key
metrics that will be used for this monitoring. I want to make sure
iperf 2 can cover the technical, traffic related ones that make
sense to a skilled network operator, including a WiFi BSS manager. I

didn't read all 327 pages though, from what I did read, I didn't see

anything obvious. I assume these types of KPIs may be in reference
docs or something.

Thanks in advance for any help on this.
Bob

And...

Our bufferbloat.net submittal was cited multiple times! Thank you
all
for participating in that process!

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachm= ents/DOC-400675A1.pdf

It is a long read, and does still start off on the wrong feet
(IMHO),
in particular not understanding the difference between idle and
working latency.

It is my hope that by widening awareness of more of the real
problems
with latency under load to policymakers and other submitters
downstream from this new FCC document, and more reading what we
had to
say, that we will begin to make serious progress towards finally
fixing bufferbloat in the USA.

I do keep hoping that somewhere along the way in the future, the
costs
of IPv4 address exhaustion and the IPv6 transition, will also get
raised to the national level. [1]

We are still collecting signatures for what the bufferbloat
project
members wrote, and have 1200 bucks in the kitty for further
articles
and/or publicity. Thoughts appreciated as to where we can go next
with
shifting the national debate about bandwidth in a better
direction!
Next up would be trying to get a meeting, and to do an ex-parte
filing, I think, and I wish we could do a live demonstration on
television about it as good as feynman did here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DraMmRKGkGD4<= /a>

Our original posting is here:

https://docs.goog= le.com/document/d/19ADByjakzQXCj9Re_pUvrb5Qe5OK-QmhlYRLMBY4vH4/edit


Larry's wonderful post is here:
https://circleid.com/posts/2023121= 1-its-the-latency-fcc

[1] How can we get more talking about IPv4 and IPv6, too? Will we
have
to wait another year?
=C2=A0
https://hackaday.com/2024/0= 2/14/floss-weekly-episode-769-10-more-internet/


--
https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/2024_predict= ions/
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagai= n
=C2=A0_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain<= /a>

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