From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A781B3CB39 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2023 11:55:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (c-69-181-111-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [69.181.111.171]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A4EE01B258; Thu, 12 Oct 2023 08:55:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com A4EE01B258 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1697126157; bh=AUFdVDOOAFMHuJcVAp6MusUfQ2I3Sw1BhV645oPp5lg=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:CC:From; b=DA5Gx3EnDx2RLul+3WcSdZn4oCmpoD9RZ4E4QK5JMdnp7Ssw/8tF9k48eVaiUbZIc +DoOM6ZMrErzQBP8941CQd0uIQYv/kfTuSXDm5NFqgO8zPDdZF0ZzIyXSZAZqtgeQX 69nEiydQUIVMekJovuCv9Lu6aYEfu//ke5jOQSjo= In-Reply-To: References: <9f79b6f4b45c45c6d2fd2a43783f0157@rjmcmahon.com> X-Referenced-Uid: 00011468567702d5 Thread-Topic: Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati? User-Agent: Android X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----7I612Q7IQU6LERY4308ZGT8GNDYDEA" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert McMahon Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 08:55:57 -0700 To: David Lang CC: Pedro Tumusok via Nnagain Message-ID: <6a03ab3b-8e1c-4727-9fd9-07a38db4fb73@rjmcmahon.com> Subject: Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati? X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 15:55:58 -0000 ------7I612Q7IQU6LERY4308ZGT8GNDYDEA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi David, The vendors I know don't roll their own os code either=2E The m= ake their own release still mostly based from Linux and they aren't tied to= the openwrt release process=2E I think GUIs on CPEs are the wrong direct= ion=2E Consumer network equipment does best when it's plug and play=2E Cons= umers don't have all the skills needed to manage an in home packet network = that includes wifi=2E I recently fixed a home network for my inlaws=2E It'= s a combo of structured wire and WiFi APs=2E I purchased the latest equipme= nt from Amazon vs use the ISP provided equipment=2E I can do this reasonabl= y well because I'm familiar with the chips inside=2E The online tech suppo= rt started with trepidation as he was concerned that the home owner, i=2Ee = me, wasn't as skilled as the ISP technicians=2E He suggested we schedule th= at but I said we were good to go w/o one=2E He asked to speak to my fathe= r in law when we were all done=2E He told him, "You're lucky to have a son = in law that know what he's doing=2E My techs aren't as good, and I really l= iked working with him too=2E" I say this not to brag, as many on this list= could do the equivalent, but to show that we really need to train lots of = technicians on things like RF and structured wiring=2E Nobody should be "lu= cky" to get a quality in home network=2E=C2=A0 We're not lucky to have a fl= ush toilet anymore=2E This stuff is too important to rely on luck=2E Bob = On Oct 11, 2023, 3:58 PM, at 3:58 PM, David Lang wrote: >= On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: > >> I don't know the numbers but a g= uess is that a majority of SoCs with >WiFi >> radios aren't based on openw= rt=2E > >From what I've seen, the majority of APs out there are based on Op= enWRT >or one >of the competing open projects, very few roll their own OS = from scratch > >> I think many on this list use openwrt but >> that may no= t be representative of the actuals=2E Also, the trend is >less sw in >> a = CPU forwarding plane and more hw, one day, linux at the CPEs may >not be >= > needed at all (if we get to remote radio heads - though this is >highly = >> speculative=2E) > >that is countered by the trend to do more (fancier GU= I, media center, >etc) The >vendors all want to differentiate themselves, = that's hard to do if it's >baked >into the chips > >> From my experience, = sw is defined by the number & frequency of >commits, and >> of timeliness = to issues more than a version number or compile date=2E >So the >> size an= d quality of the software staff can be informative=2E >> >> I'm more intere= sted in mfg node process then the mfg location & date >as the >> node proc= ess gives an idea if the design is keeping up or not=2E Chips >designed >>= in 2012 are woefully behind and consume too much energy and generate >too = much >> heat=2E I think Intel provides this information on all its chips a= s an >example=2E > >I'm far less concerned about the chips than the softwar= e=2E Security >holes are far >more likely in the software than the chips= =2E The chips may limit the max > >performance of the devices, but the focu= s of this is on the security, >not the >throughput or the power efficiency= (I don't mind that extra info, but >what makes >some device unsafe to use= isn't the age of the chips, but the age of >the >software) > >David Lang = > >> Bob >>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, David Bray, PhD via Nnagain wrote: >>> >= >>> There's also the concern about how do startups roll-out such a >label f= or >>>> their tech in the early iteration phase? How do they afford to do >= the >>>> extra >>>> work for the label vs=2E a big company (does this beco= me a regulatory >moat?) >>>> >>>> And let's say we have these labels=2E Wi= ll only consumers with the >money to >>>> purchase the more expensive equip= ment that has more privacy and >security >>>> features buy that one - leavi= ng those who cannot afford privacy and >>>> security bad alternatives? >>> = >>> As far as security goes, I would argue that the easy answer is to >shi= p >>> a current version of openwrt instead of a forked, ancient version, >a= nd >>> get their changes submitted upstream (or at least maintained against= >>> upstream)=2E It's a different paradigm than they are used to, and >rig= ht >>> now the suppliers tend to also work with ancient versions of >openwr= t, >>> but in all the companies that I have worked at, it's proven to be >l= ess >>> ongoing work (and far less risk) to keep up with current versions >= than >>> it is to stick with old versions and then do periodic 'big jump' >= >> upgrades=2E >>> >>> it's like car maintinance, it seems easier to ignor= e your tires, >>> brakes, and oil changes, but the minimal cost of maintain= ing those >>> systems pays off in a big way over time >>> >>> David Lang >= >> _______________________________________________ >>> Nnagain mailing list= >>> Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Ene= t/listinfo/nnagain >>> >>> _______________________________________________= >>> Nnagain mailing list >>> Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>> https:/= /lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain >> ------7I612Q7IQU6LERY4308ZGT8GNDYDEA Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi David,
The vendors I know don't roll their own os c= ode either=2E The make their own release still mostly based from Linux and = they aren't tied to the openwrt release process=2E

I think GUIs on CPEs are the wrong direction=2E Consumer network = equipment does best when it's plug and play=2E Consumers don't have all the= skills needed to manage an in home packet network that includes wifi=2E
I recently fixed a home network for my inlaws= =2E It's a combo of structured wire and WiFi APs=2E I purchased the latest = equipment from Amazon vs use the ISP provided equipment=2E I can do this re= asonably well because I'm familiar with the chips inside=2E

<= div dir=3D"auto">The online tech support started with trepidation as he was= concerned that the home owner, i=2Ee me, wasn't as skilled as the ISP tech= nicians=2E He suggested we schedule that but I said we were good to go w/o = one=2E

He asked to speak to my father in l= aw when we were all done=2E He told him, "You're lucky to have a son in law= that know what he's doing=2E My techs aren't as good, and I really liked w= orking with him too=2E"

I say this not to b= rag, as many on this list could do the equivalent, but to show that we real= ly need to train lots of technicians on things like RF and structured wirin= g=2E Nobody should be "lucky" to get a quality in home network=2E=C2=A0 We'= re not lucky to have a flush toilet anymore=2E This stuff is too important = to rely on luck=2E

Bob
On Oct 11, 2023, at 3:58 PM, David Lang <david@lang=2Ehm> wrote: 
On =
Wed, 11 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:

 I don't know the numbers but a guess is that a majority of=
 SoCs with WiFi 
 radios aren't based on openwrt=2E

=
From=20what I've seen, the majority of APs out there are based on OpenWRT or =
one 
of the competing open projects, very few roll their own OS from scr=
atch

 I think many =
on this list use openwrt but 
 that may not be representative of the act=
uals=2E Also, the trend is less sw in 
 a CPU forwarding plane and more =
hw, one day, linux at the CPEs may not be 
 needed at all (if we get to =
remote radio heads - though this is highly 
 speculative=2E)

that is countered by the trend to do more (fancier GUI, media cent=
er, etc) The 
vendors all want to differentiate themselves, that's hard =
to do if it's baked 
into the chips

 From my experience, sw is defined by the number & =
frequency of commits, and 
 of timeliness to issues more than a version =
number or compile date=2E So the 
 size and quality of the software staf=
f can be informative=2E

 I'm more interested in mfg node process the=
n the mfg location & date as the 
 node process gives an idea if the=
 design is keeping up or not=2E Chips designed 
 in 2012 are woefully be=
hind and consume too much energy and generate too much 
 heat=2E I think=
 Intel provides this information on all its chips as an example=2E

I'm far less concerned about the chips than the software=2E Sec=
urity holes are far 
more likely in the software than the chips=2E The c=
hips may limit the max 
performance of the devices, but the focus of thi=
s is on the security, not the 
throughput or the power efficiency (I don=
't mind that extra info, but what makes 
some device unsafe to use isn't=
 the age of the chips, but the age of the 
software)

David Lang
 Bob
 On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, David Bray, PhD =
via Nnagain wrote:
 
 There's also the concern about how do startups roll-out such a label for<=
br> their tech in the early iteration phase? How do they afford to do the <=
br> extra
 work for the label vs=2E a big company (does this become a re=
gulatory moat?)
 
 And let's say we have these labels=2E Will only co=
nsumers with the money to
 purchase the more expensive equipment that ha=
s more privacy and security
 features buy that one - leaving those who c=
annot afford privacy and
 security bad alternatives?
  As far as security goes, I would argue that the easy answer is to ship a current version of openwrt instead of a forked, ancient version, and get their changes submitted upstream (or at least maintained against
=
 upstream)=2E It's a different paradigm than they are used to, and right now the suppliers tend to also work with ancient versions of openwrt,
=
 but in all the companies that I have worked at, it's proven to be less
=
 ongoing work (and far less risk) to keep up with current versions than
=
 it is to stick with old versions and then do periodic 'big jump'
 upgra=
des=2E
 
 it's like car maintinance, it seems easier to ignore your t=
ires,
 brakes, and oil changes, but the minimal cost of maintaining thos=
e
 systems pays off in a big way over time
 
 David Lang
 Nnagain mailing list
 Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
 https://lists=2Ebuf=
ferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain
 

 Nnagain mailing list Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
 https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nna=
gain

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