From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail46.out.titan.email (mail46.out.titan.email [3.66.115.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 672243B29D for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2024 16:16:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail14.out.flockmail.com (ip-10-10-85-170.eu-central-1.compute.internal [10.10.85.170]) by smtp-out.titan.email (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F756120323 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2024 21:16:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp-out.flockmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out.flockmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21C9600FD; Tue, 27 Feb 2024 21:16:26 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; bh=zYibWCRl8ZskIFJPUQ6TXEpaatRUWiWoibBtCSQeUOM=; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=3kitty.org; h=from:message-id:date:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:subject:to:references:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to; q=dns/txt; s=titan1; t=1709068586; v=1; b=MzgOGc4cbMtUsQFCuR1fvR8TQWf0GMJzbaIkrGtNg6Tn68XUBO/P2oliZV9aXsxd5JaTwOEX zT+1tmYg2qT5l07AIERqIZi06pvG3WIV92I3xLrvzPuWLDqB6Labfv+xxMjlRnhCimGjWye06bm PuNqA/IyAAV6ecg0Lk64IJf4= Received: from [192.168.1.100] (c-76-137-180-175.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [76.137.180.175]) by smtp-out.flockmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 308CB60089; Tue, 27 Feb 2024 21:16:26 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <6baf5e84-c8b1-4327-b01d-4441df5d68fa@3kitty.org> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 13:16:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: Sebastian Moeller , =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects?= =?UTF-8?Q?_heard_this_time!?= References: <3d808d9df1a6929ecfba495e75b4fc1b@rjmcmahon.com> <09af7b4f2ff73657a1d1b24db3d23fac@rjmcmahon.com> <40cb4962-6c95-44b2-96b8-ee68a7c16b1f@3kitty.org> <698e2f7e-e174-474d-814c-64dca7ca9a87@3kitty.org> <223D4AB0-DBA9-4DF2-AEEE-876C7B994E89@gmx.de> Content-Language: en-US Feedback-ID: :jack@3kitty.org:3kitty.org:flockmailId From: Jack Haverty Autocrypt: addr=jack@3kitty.org; keydata= xsDNBGCm2psBDADGOWO8n9wfkDW9ZUEo8o+SZ5MU9us2il+fS4EFM/RaZFIbQ+P72bExzSd3 WnJdPfqO1O7Q+dRnvVO9+G2/9oT/uRZVaE05+SothzKZBv32HcZoUkdNZOTqSkdo3EwNPjid LLxX+dMBxMpR3pBdvGN8Z7lnZe6fV4QO2xtd58y3B33AVZJp+RuNwucby9dY2meyy2BJVKrx mKhYXAucVyg0ALVIchHt9UknVW4aLvQF+oMfzXVvCWeguW+DvbyazVceWGO7FSgUJ8ED3Ii7 xAR5zZJ1LASoMhG1ixg07P9Uy4ohV6c+c0yV9SY4yqhZ3+zN2cm9h/aXpwjSuiVVAJbK7zzb FjI+h89dbnaVQrLx6GikV0OVYqC6TCeMfCFZQAJLs1icxQi3BLL7O1fbTGatEfTgLa5nqfKq K/D/HlOCUeFxqZI8hXvT5dG4e1m3ilpF2/ytcWKSVg3d699UFntPv3sEbAQwwfXsnuD4Hem6 0Ao0/z41n8x1aeZE80FdkpEAEQEAAc0eSmFjayBIYXZlcnR5IDxqYWNrQDNraXR0eS5vcmc+ wsEJBBMBCAAzFiEEZLvMn5vmvTAlFEILdGzDIkA7jlAFAmCm2pwCGwMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsC BRYCAwEAAAoJEHRswyJAO45QuX0L/jOluv8fr/BmuEEQsWWGW6oARIbjDQrI93kXIJXuPnfp tGjkx/f1TMIzI2B9s/tejiYE7IZOhWbX1YvKF0UbkSJi50UyV9XtYRnLdD5TcksKB4luDF8S R+nj5WBm17Bp8qwriCMgA1jGL2wQ7J1KUw4Q/gsMcjhn/39PevswkriU2qqVplfCs9yTTMU5 SvtE2U9F3Y1ZINHn3kUysvxhRFd+Oh3PocWHmVE+hkII+qsra6z4eztDgoB+vqxmOJEdtvex GhT8OKu74DacguZVfu/AV+cwpX701sdjJrMyKjcv8uhFLM/E5gf6kSUAFxBVwe6pNDmAgmbS c0fAFrZjgXxNxxndpu/8OAUDVzKg+l5WJ0nWss9Q14BwA+FcoclO3lwzFu7jOiLvkm7jQkFB o+p8Owe4iAED1KK/aocIa/RiD4sZ3KXUJ92kkemZ1Qe2XpFVdzxaQDG0huNkc5Mie9rdt62O Ae+5cYdPeWmBVn+pFNs5H09kQQbVR5pUxe2Aps7AzQRgptqcAQwAzzougHNMFr/O/L8HnNJW 1YyOuX0PEVNUXQPwkxKuD8bAXsPr4Hv1a+840ByesiJSadhQgVSMruRqoQC5tTkbEWkqlfDW waNAdqCJOXl2T6gtK7RpcHNx7+/du/gCAhHOXqH1Qfs0Zi3YEbR/kQFRP3wD4GiCvHSny8zJ X9plIHqQGoE5DePNAtE2KimbFMsjguqJgq5x0tMf3qEaMNd0IGTStGpcC49iss71slotH091 Y1Yo9CpzL6rj8IP0BfssEujAvf3Gbf1oi92JRE3s2humFDfPvSlHmRIfWPQ4qFOw1zmlzsV1 eg83gErKbjaDdkbwQA85RTmMVKNVvonM80WB6jAg8tlJ5VlYlpbzASpJRNj+FL1LLBQxCbPU eFwrzqYgNvtdKR7j5nTgdndCxq+2aws/aAjdL10S8yeH7ZOpNPzjDJfMSt/L1O25zPUhXdQC 9AZNYsfyV7rf+POEgVpIEth1fT9WbmS0rZxRd/+y628n31GicbA+teN890vdABEBAAHCwPYE GAEIACAWIQRku8yfm+a9MCUUQgt0bMMiQDuOUAUCYKbanQIbDAAKCRB0bMMiQDuOUF1LC/4q 4pLtmDt6TIET2H7zGj5ie3ng7kC7YqtFPYwgLQzs9WeqQ/5WowEmHOPonBcqhGbtDj22GebQ 7w0RoUHb+aXsbC85I/C+nWgT1ZcfMBTHGlBcIQvOCNG18g87Ha9jgD0HnW4bRUkZmGMpP0Yd TLM+PBNu41AK6z82VPQrfTuPKqwAAS2FK/RpF2xB7rjpETzIPl9Dj9EAkRbviURIg0BQkmej l02FLzGmlTfBIDHBdEgzvD71Z5H9BP8DAbxBzonSTzx/KZyv7njSUzdVLW+5O/WzPgb4Qt4I jQd66LS9HWS1G7AcLjiSQAIf8v7JkX3NwtN+NGX5cmt2p0e9FOOKWXVgCIgPN3/712EEGAgq UUxuPEBD5DrRCgjZL40eHxQza2BAhoVoWopUCGZdCCZJP3iF7818wIph0U393DELG9NAGLJa qkoA8KBimXp9Rd2QvpA864JRy/REoEOEF9lm3clriLyEqaL/VMIQRhl/VSkUuez4Wr68eHus TFdwePg= In-Reply-To: <223D4AB0-DBA9-4DF2-AEEE-876C7B994E89@gmx.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------0pEMR537xGK2EJcPnkJwh0gw" X-F-Verdict: SPFVALID X-Titan-Src-Out: 1709068586678904183.4256.2714452096832966654@prod-use1-smtp-out1001. X-CMAE-Score: 0 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=d4zzywjE c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=65de512a a=cdvcmBiFVbz+0Uto4GLkPg==:117 a=cdvcmBiFVbz+0Uto4GLkPg==:17 a=CEWIc4RMnpUA:10 a=13zjGPudsaEWiJwPRgMA:9 a=BqEg4_3jAAAA:8 a=kurRqvosAAAA:8 a=doUQZJtgAAAA:8 a=vnREMb7VAAAA:8 a=GVOmBQAAAAAA:20 a=VhopHIYIAAAA:8 a=9wEFEmgGAAAA:8 a=U7_ZthDDAAAA:8 a=3G72ooJZM-w5Xfg5ySEA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=rowp9BDKcwBM0oiuzysA:9 a=E6f3DaxN8vGvMbfI:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=lqcHg5cX4UMA:10 a=mVcgwxjBTkr3zjpDlhIA:9 a=FfaGCDsud1wA:10 a=muA9ObxPkrkPawHk1PYA:9 a=0mFWnFbQd5xWBqmg7tTt:22 a=kbxRQ_lfPIoQnHsAj2-A:22 a=d0-0EwFVFT64L02gzcZV:22 a=MWj7j3wg__VA2-K6Jgv6:22 a=URuH0njPyasT08JpGQTJ:22 a=9JDB30BYp0WKznqG0cJI:22 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Subject: Re: [NNagain] [M-Lab-Discuss] The FCC 2024 Section 706 Report, GN Docket No. 22-270 is out! X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 21:16:28 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------0pEMR537xGK2EJcPnkJwh0gw Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------ld8TjSO0IyITaHaRw7mDIMtp"; protected-headers="v1" From: Jack Haverty To: Sebastian Moeller , =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects?= =?UTF-8?Q?_heard_this_time!?= Cc: rjmcmahon Message-ID: <6baf5e84-c8b1-4327-b01d-4441df5d68fa@3kitty.org> Subject: Re: [NNagain] [M-Lab-Discuss] The FCC 2024 Section 706 Report, GN Docket No. 22-270 is out! 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Actually, "passing information on to endpoints" is an idea much older than 2019.=C2=A0 It was in the original TCP V4 specification in= 1981.=C2=A0=C2=A0 See RFC792 ( https://www.rfc-editor.org/rf= c/rfc792 ) pages 10-11.

I remember the discussions when the "Source Quench" (SQ) mechanism was being defined in the Internet Meetings around 1980.=C2=A0=C2=A0 P= ersonally I never thought SQ was a viable feedback technique, but it was OK as a placeholder for some future protocol that switches could use to exert back-pressure on the users' traffic, once a more effective mechanism was invented.

Instead of "slowing down", some implementors of TCP circa 1981 designed their systems to immediately retransmit a datagram that had caused a SQ to come back, figuring that the SQ meant that their original datagram had been discarded.

Jack

On 2/27/24 12:45, Sebastian Moeller wrote:
Hi Jack,


On 27. Feb 2024, at 21:11,=
 Jack Haverty via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

Hi Bob,

Measuring and monitoring Wifi behavior isn't necessary or sufficient.  Sa=
me with Starlink or whatever else comes along in the future.

The architecture of the Internet places different mechanisms, that in pas=
t times were contained in the switching equipment, now at many different =
places along a data path.  Much of the mechanism is even in the users' de=
vices themselves, which make all sorts of decisions about datagram size, =
acknowledgements, retransmission, discarding duplicates, et al.  Those me=
chanisms interact with the decisions being made in network equipment such=
 as switches.   The overall behavior dictates what the end users see as b=
ehavior and reliability of "the net" as they experience it.   The perform=
ance of the overall system is influenced by the interaction of its many p=
ieces.

My point was that to manage network service ("network" being defined by t=
he users), you have to monitor and measure performance as seen by the use=
rs, as close to the keyboard/mouse/screen/whatever as you can get.  That'=
s why we decided to require a computer of some kind on each users' LAN en=
vironment, so we could experience and measure what they were likely exper=
iencing, and use our measurements of switches, circuits, etc. to analyze =
and fix problems.   It was also helpful to have a database of the metrics=
 captured during previous "normal" network activity, to use as comparison=
s.=20

As one example, I remember one event when a momentary glitch on a transpa=
cific circuit would cause a flurry of activity as TCPs in the users' comp=
uters compensated, and would settle back to a steady state after a few mi=
nutes.  But users complained that their file transfers were now taking mu=
ch longer than usual.  After our poking and prodding, using those remote =
computers as tools to see what the users were experiencing, we discovered=
 that everything was operating as expected, except that every datagram wa=
s being transmitted twice and the duplicates discarded at the destination=
=2E   The TCP retransmission mechanisms had settled into a new stable sta=
te.

To the network switches, the datagrams all seeemed OK, but there was sign=
ificantly more traffic than usual.  No one was monitoring all those user =
devices out on the LANs so no one except the users noticed anything wrong=
=2E   Eventually another glitch on the circuit would cause another flurry=
 of activity and perhaps settle back into the desired state where datagra=
ms only got sent once.

We monitored whatever we could using SNMP to the routers and computers th=
at had implemented such things, and we used our remote computers to also =
collect data from the users' perspective.   Often we could tell a LAN man=
ager that some particular deviceat his/her site was having problems, by l=
ooking for behavior that differed from the "normal" historical behavior f=
rom a week or so earlier.

It would be interesting for example to collect metrics from switches abou=
t "buffer occupancy" and "transit time" (I don't recall if any MIB in SNM=
P had such metrics), and correlate that with TCP metrics such as retransm=
ission behavior and duplicate detection.

	[SM] We could do even better, pas this information on to endpoints to ac=
tually allow them to not only react to overload but also to imminent over=
load... say by not collecting the absolute buffer occupancy, but say the =
max(current hop buffer occupancy, buffer occupancy already recorded in pa=
cket) (As much as would wish, this is not my idea, but Arslan,, and McKeo=
w's. in  =E2=80=9CSwitches Know the Exact Amount of Congestion.=E2=80=9D =
In Proceedings of the 2019 Workshop on Buffer Sizing, 1=E2=80=936, 2019.)=


Regards
	Sebastian


Jack



On 2/27/24 09:48, rjmcmahon wrote:

Hi Jack,=20

On LAN probes & monitors; I've been told that 90% of users devices ar=
e now wirelessly connected so the concept of connecting to a common wave =
guide to measure or observe user information & flow state isn't viabl=
e. A WiFi AP could provide its end state but wireless channels' states ar=
e non-trivial and the APs prioritize packet forwarding at L2 over state c=
ollection. I suspect a fully capable AP that could record per quintuple a=
nd RF channels' states would be too expensive. This is part of the reason=
 why our industry and policy makers need to define the key performance me=
trics well.=20

Bob

Yes, latency is compli=
cated....  Back when I was involved in the=20
early Internet (early 1980s), we knew that latency was an issue=20
requiring much further research, but we figured that meanwhile=20
problems could be avoided by keeping traffic loads well below capacity=20
while the appropriate algorithms could be discovered by the engineers=20
(I was one...).  Forty years later, it seems like it's still a=20
research topic.=20

Years later in the 90s I was involved in operating an international=20
corporate intranet.  We quickly learned that keeping the human users=20
happy required looking at more than the routers and circuits between=20
them.  With much of the "reliability mechanisms" of TCP et al now=20
located in the users' computers rather than the network switches,=20
evaluating users' experience with "the net" required measurements from=20
the users' perspective.=20

To do that, we created a policy whereby every LAN attached to the=20
long-haul backbone had to have a computer on that LAN to which we had=20
remote access.   That enabled us to perform "ping" tests and also=20
collect data about TCP behavior (duplicates, retransmissions, etc.)=20
using SNMP, etherwatch, et al.   It was not unusual for the users'=20
data to indicate that "the net", as they saw it, was misbehaving while=20
the network data, as seen by the operators, indicated that all the=20
routers and circuits were working just fine.=20

If the government regulators want to keep the users happy, IMHO they=20
need to understand this.=20

Jack Haverty=20

On 2/26/24 16:25, rjmcmahon wrote:=20


On top of all that, =
the latency responses tend to be non parametric=20
and may need full pdfs/cdfs along with non-parametric statistical=20
process controls. Attached is an example from many years ago which=20
was a firmware bug that sometimes delayed packet processing,=20
creating a second node in the pdf.=20

Engineers and their algorithms can be this way it seems.=20

Bob=20
I didn't study the whole report, but I didn't notice any metrics=20
associated with *variance* of latency or bandwidth.  It's common for=20

vendors to play games ("Lies, damn lies, and statistics!") to make=20
their metrics look good.   A metric of latency that says something=20
like "99% less than N milliseconds" doesn't necessarily translate=20
into=20
an acceptable user performance.=20

It's also important to look at the specific techniques used for=20
taking=20
measurements.  For example, if a measurement is performed every=20
fifteen minutes, extrapolating the metric as representative of all=20
the=20
time between measurements can also lead to a metric judgement which=20
doesn't reflect the reality of what the user actually experiences.=20

In addition, there's a lot of mechanism between the ISPs' handling=20
of=20
datagrams and the end-user.   The users' experience is affected by=20
how=20
all of that mechanism interacts as underlying network behavior=20
changes.  When a TCP running in some host decides it needs to=20
retransmit, or an interactive audio/video session discards datagrams=20

because they arrive too late to be useful, the user sees=20
unacceptable=20
performance even though the network operators may think everything=20
is=20
running fine.   Measurements from the end-users' perspective might=20
indicate performance is quite different from what measurements at=20
the=20
ISP level suggest.=20

Gamers are especially sensitive to variance, but it will also apply=20
to=20
interactive uses such as might occur in telemedicine or remote=20
operations.  A few years ago I helped a friend do some tests for a=20
gaming situation and we discovered that the average latency was=20
reasonably low, but occasionally, perhaps a few times per hour,=20
latency would increase to 10s of seconds.=20

In a game, that often means the player loses.  In a remote surgery=20
it=20
may mean horrendous outcomes.  As more functionality is performed=20
"in=20
the cloud" such situations will become increasingly common.=20

Jack Haverty=20

On 2/26/24 12:02, rjmcmahon via Nnagain wrote:=20

Thanks for sharing this. I'm trying to find out what are the key=20
metrics that will be used for this monitoring. I want to make sure=20
iperf 2 can cover the technical, traffic related ones that make=20
sense to a skilled network operator, including a WiFi BSS manager. I=20

didn't read all 327 pages though, from what I did read, I didn't see=20

anything obvious. I assume these types of KPIs may be in reference=20
docs or something.=20

Thanks in advance for any help on this.=20
Bob=20

And...=20

Our bufferbloat.net submittal was cited multiple times! Thank you=20
all=20
for participating in that process!=20

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-4=
00675A1.pdf=20

It is a long read, and does still start off on the wrong feet=20
(IMHO),=20
in particular not understanding the difference between idle and=20
working latency.=20

It is my hope that by widening awareness of more of the real=20
problems=20
with latency under load to policymakers and other submitters=20
downstream from this new FCC document, and more reading what we=20
had to=20
say, that we will begin to make serious progress towards finally=20
fixing bufferbloat in the USA.=20

I do keep hoping that somewhere along the way in the future, the=20
costs=20
of IPv4 address exhaustion and the IPv6 transition, will also get=20
raised to the national level. [1]=20

We are still collecting signatures for what the bufferbloat=20
project=20
members wrote, and have 1200 bucks in the kitty for further=20
articles=20
and/or publicity. Thoughts appreciated as to where we can go next=20
with=20
shifting the national debate about bandwidth in a better=20
direction!=20
Next up would be trying to get a meeting, and to do an ex-parte=20
filing, I think, and I wish we could do a live demonstration on=20
television about it as good as feynman did here:=20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DraMmRKGkGD4=20

Our original posting is here:

https://docs.goog=
le.com/document/d/19ADByjakzQXCj9Re_pUvrb5Qe5OK-QmhlYRLMBY4vH4/edit=20



Larry's wonderful =
post is here:=20
https://circleid.com/posts/20231211-its-the-la=
tency-fcc=20

[1] How can we get more talking about IPv4 and IPv6, too? Will we=20
have=20
to wait another year?

 =20
https://hackaday.com/2024/0=
2/14/floss-weekly-episode-769-10-more-internet/=20



--=20
https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/2024_predictions/=20
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos

____________________=
___________________________=20
Nnagain mailing list=20
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net=20
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain

 _____________________=
__________________________=20
Nnagain mailing list=20
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net=20
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain

<OpenPGP_0x746CC322403B8E50.asc>___________________________________=
____________
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