From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A05AD3CB37 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2023 06:41:55 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1697280094; x=1697884894; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=p3dQfLlyntdAMhDxAPdM+RyOm9MpiXek3qydjYmh1QQ=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=aUt18xwbkgMDtt+LaXKPEt1Z7X3VEarLoATeNahe4Y0qkfmukRbafU3/b1iftqwafkuQbVAN7qd qH0pHuYKzYFUlTQt6+FAeslJfs9UXxUzEs0kJzGSlgfezaZ5gDKTE/olxW7CIac6tDdGn3qIMSGvl IwBywtqUeo7f+VgoSuJrhqoT2y0rSngfNhzWf2X+yYu5rEsRRrmPIIgY22XRy5LsmodflcjhgJHrA dWtYDlplqgbYpbv1ASyf3RUyvfxlQQwLw7cafyiPdz+5PG6Elq9/2tvf0Gw6HxZ4VXKNOJ/P99ram 5QOMhGCOW6y5IQ3EPobrYLvXUob2YSI4H3nA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([95.112.230.163]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MYNNo-1r48zv3dj8-00VMSE; Sat, 14 Oct 2023 12:41:33 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.4\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2023 12:41:32 +0200 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= , David Lang Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7D00C729-88AF-418B-991A-43C98E022CE6@gmx.de> References: <9f79b6f4b45c45c6d2fd2a43783f0157@rjmcmahon.com> <6a03ab3b-8e1c-4727-9fd9-07a38db4fb73@rjmcmahon.com> <2084BE53-6EAD-4480-B265-374C6A0F4874@gmx.de> To: rjmcmahon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.4) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:j2WD7zQA8NWq/w7XXKSEyFhmwLhjq16NmNn/yrTBmkjqDZU3qGm ijPawXBOdki6FB3IPHLoNT84JQwMPNlBseh4p2ITqns7cqXhFJvz4asnVpFOFKc8WAzpLW1 Dyfs20jTRSS4AUoe5ssMTQTL4FzJaMxGpez5oEiX0QdqKMUatC4ZfkRiz/0NejIO0Ex69re Kf2359JNSudl0RWiZ4BlQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:82gj2MLWZoM=;9QLthx0sil1hY6d4HoynmdqCV2x HAKenGgAyW95xYHug1qTPI7Rbkoo2qrsk1GUNB85IDDeEiAmnHUxd+FdH+MdxkNHzWu6+ip5a JdsJ42veCZC8kX4KP1FexAyBK1uIdAhYJ/dulg0VX4Og6jjfh1j0/+s+WOic7hkDgN0nfxI8G Se2+dy7O59RUCwXzlmkcbGYNRa9BZnWuy5lbk9C8mJXb79tbYcvWGe1ye7R3AB6hpFOjzrvFl a1x8a7kmjPQiYrwpD3IIxVYim6U4gAb2X59sp2Z7V/0IY5p9aE1w3YXykJJzPW2X7nTDnDsm2 tllWJE5bz7qaQ53CJP+q1uosNoedRG4Xcs5RqkwdG/WkFZIb95uHyckQVMrPmHRRU8p0/3x3P G4xx9W+L32mn69tRpDzeCi3DPGxK9afbypLCQ/bpAaEoYNFpvJMjRwLL8IpY0Lu7YYtXxsreG vYfXMZ0FccSxIaU1IepFXvVNRvjAZwB87CNp8KCSk2nfaVHuSX+al7MzrQPz0vmKGs8vAwzNC AgN5r9S4xZ3fiOeW3xW5DGtEJQaSzU10gC7fqOmTs2My7bw3BIojuYWgbuFHS8A2qG4k661+Y biZnpXxbK5NXEDn2f1sNiyEn/zdsomZMfSXVtT0yB80MJVELFiScdqBVm8MX3c9JkYYl2p5ch XucLWD5uPqb5ua1OtHFO9O031gnsSeAuFfp/mIBcVLykwixVRpmsizzo4oFRNg7wkWEYJoXGr QPi5JZTILkM4ICUK0lEYlo8kJOs2dUfkXONCQ4PAvm9A2/rm+/85d4T83K1VEINFUbXPfFl1/ c3uFW5bD6vYUKsqjwvs66GkLCctKTWTye7WQdC4lTRpnEP5iLt8OvDox/zXjbv1gUqi94Jq7h JpEgYjKkR9w/zgRw4IQsxvDIeHI25o9LRi+ad+S1I217QCc1TaEDasXeMHjj9nFS+dUhzLYZ6 N2Pom6skjBDiEYWHRw/Gb1xquAo= Subject: Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati? X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:41:56 -0000 Hi Bob, > On Oct 13, 2023, at 19:20, rjmcmahon wrote: >=20 > Hi Sebastian, >=20 > It was the ISP tech support over the phone. Trying to help install a = home network over the phone w/o a technician isn't easy. [SM] Ah, okay. I would never even think about calling my ISP = when considering changes to my home network (for one, I would rather = McGywer this, and also my ISP does not really offer that as a = servicedsdw), I guess different service offerings in different = countries. > In many U.S. states, smoke detectors are required to be no more that = 30' apart, must be AC powered, battery backed up and must communicate = with one another. The smoke sensor needs to be replaced every ten years = max. [SM] Intersting! Over here detectors are also mandatory (but no = distance or networking requirements, it is special rooms like bed rooms = that need to have one). Also over here no AC requirement. > It's a good place to install remote radio heads, or even full blown = APs, for both internet access points and for life support sensors. [SM] I agree, and with an AC requirement powering such APs/radio = heads is not rocket science either, heck in a first iteration one might = even use PLC to bring data to the APs... > 10G NRE spends stopped over a decade ago. Early adopters aren't likely = going to wire 10G over copper in their homes. [SM] Over here active 2.5 Gbps ethernet are just becoming cheap = enough for enthusiasts to switch over to, and 2.5 has the advantage of = operating well even over most cat5 wiring (few homes I know will push = anywhere close to the typical 100m copper ethernet limit, most will be = fine with < 30m). > 100G only goes 4 meters so copper really isn't an option for future = proof comm cable throughout buildings. [SM] Indeed, but I am not 100% sure what use-case would justify = going 100Gbps in a typical home? Sure if one switches to fiber wiring = and 100Gbps is only marginally more expensive than 1 or 10 Gbps why not?=20= > Fiber to WiFi seems straight forward to me. [SM] This might be related to your professional background = though? ;) Just kidding, I think you are simply a few years ahead of the = rest of us, as you know what is in the pipeline. > People don't want to be leashed to plugs so the last meters have to be = wireless. [SM] Yes and no. People did not bother about wiring office desks = or even smart TVs, but smart phones and tablets are a different kettle = of fish, as are laptops, that might be operated wired on the desk but = wireless in the rest of the house. I also note that more and more = laptops come without built in ethernet (personally I detest that, an = rj45 jack is not that thick that a laptop body can not be planned around = that, leaving some more room for e.g. NVMe sockets or simplify cooling a = bit, ultra-thin is IMHO not really in the end-users' interest, but I = digress). > We need to standardized to the extent that we can on one wireless tech = (similar to Ethernet for wired) and a proposal is to use 802.11 since = that's selling in volume, driven by mobile hand sets. [SM] Sure 802.11 is likely to stay by virtue of being relatively = ubiquitous and by being generally already good enough for many use cases = (with road-maps for tackling more demanding use-cases, and I very much = include your fiwi proposal here). >=20 > Bob >> Hi Bob, >>> On Oct 12, 2023, at 17:55, Robert McMahon via Nnagain = wrote: >>> Hi David, >>> The vendors I know don't roll their own os code either. The make = their own release still mostly based from Linux and they aren't tied to = the openwrt release process. >>> I think GUIs on CPEs are the wrong direction. Consumer network = equipment does best when it's plug and play. Consumers don't have all = the skills needed to manage an in home packet network that includes = wifi. >> [SM] That is both true, and (currently?) unachievable. To run a >> network connected to the internet securely requires to make a number >> of policy decisions trading-off the required/desired connectivity >> versus the cost in security (either cost as effort of maintaining >> security or cost in an increase in attack surface). >> The in-side the home situation, has IMHO drastically improved = with >> the availability of off-the-shelf mesh network gear from commercial >> vendors, with easy to follow instructions and/or apps to find decent >> AP placement. >> For structured wiring, I would agree that requires both an = unusual >> skill set (even though doing structured wiring itself is not hard, >> just doing it in a way that blends into an apartment without = signaling >> DIY-ness is more involved). >>> I recently fixed a home network for my inlaws. It's a combo of = structured wire and WiFi APs. I purchased the latest equipment from = Amazon vs use the ISP provided equipment. I can do this reasonably well = because I'm familiar with the chips inside. >>> The online tech support started with trepidation as he was concerned = that the home owner, i.e me, wasn't as skilled as the ISP technicians. = He suggested we schedule that but I said we were good to go w/o one. >> [SM] What "online tech support"? =46rom the AP vendor or from = the ISP? >> The latter might have a script recommending ISP technicians more for >> commercial considerations than technical ones... >>> He asked to speak to my father in law when we were all done. He told = him, "You're lucky to have a son in law that know what he's doing. My = techs aren't as good, and I really liked working with him too." >>> I say this not to brag, as many on this list could do the = equivalent, but to show that we really need to train lots of technicians = on things like RF and structured wiring. Nobody should be "lucky" to get = a quality in home network. We're not lucky to have a flush toilet = anymore. This stuff is too important to rely on luck. >> [SM] Mmmh, that got me thinking, maybe we should think about = always >> running network wiring parallel to electric cables so each power >> socket could easily house an ethernet plug as well... (or one per = room >> to keep the cost lower and avoid overly much "dark" copper)? Sort of >> put this into the building codes/best current practice documents... = (I >> understand starting now, will still only solve the issue over many >> decades, but at least we would be making some inroads; and speaking = of >> decades, maybe putting fiber there instead of copper might be a more >> future-oriented approach)? >>> Bob >>> On Oct 11, 2023, at 3:58 PM, David Lang wrote: >>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: >>> I don't know the numbers but a guess is that a majority of SoCs with = WiFi >>> radios aren't based on openwrt. >>> =46rom what I've seen, the majority of APs out there are based on = OpenWRT or one >>> of the competing open projects, very few roll their own OS from = scratch >>> I think many on this list use openwrt but >>> that may not be representative of the actuals. Also, the trend is = less sw in >>> a CPU forwarding plane and more hw, one day, linux at the CPEs may = not be >>> needed at all (if we get to remote radio heads - though this is = highly >>> speculative.) >>> that is countered by the trend to do more (fancier GUI, media = center, etc) The >>> vendors all want to differentiate themselves, that's hard to do if = it's baked >>> into the chips >>> =46rom my experience, sw is defined by the number & frequency of = commits, and >>> of timeliness to issues more than a version number or compile date. = So the >>> size and quality of the software staff can be informative. >>> I'm more interested in mfg node process then the mfg location & date = as the >>> node process gives an idea if the design is keeping up or not. Chips = designed >>> in 2012 are woefully behind and consume too much energy and generate = too much >>> heat. I think Intel provides this information on all its chips as an = example. >>> I'm far less concerned about the chips than the software. Security = holes are far >>> more likely in the software than the chips. The chips may limit the = max >>> performance of the devices, but the focus of this is on the = security, not the >>> throughput or the power efficiency (I don't mind that extra info, = but what makes >>> some device unsafe to use isn't the age of the chips, but the age of = the >>> software) >>> David Lang >>> Bob >>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, David Bray, PhD via Nnagain wrote: >>> There's also the concern about how do startups roll-out such a label = for >>> their tech in the early iteration phase? How do they afford to do = the >>> extra >>> work for the label vs. a big company (does this become a regulatory = moat?) >>> And let's say we have these labels. Will only consumers with the = money to >>> purchase the more expensive equipment that has more privacy and = security >>> features buy that one - leaving those who cannot afford privacy and >>> security bad alternatives? >>> As far as security goes, I would argue that the easy answer is to = ship >>> a current version of openwrt instead of a forked, ancient version, = and >>> get their changes submitted upstream (or at least maintained against >>> upstream). It's a different paradigm than they are used to, and = right >>> now the suppliers tend to also work with ancient versions of = openwrt, >>> but in all the companies that I have worked at, it's proven to be = less >>> ongoing work (and far less risk) to keep up with current versions = than >>> it is to stick with old versions and then do periodic 'big jump' >>> upgrades. >>> it's like car maintinance, it seems easier to ignore your tires, >>> brakes, and oil changes, but the minimal cost of maintaining those >>> systems pays off in a big way over time >>> David Lang >>> Nnagain mailing list >>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >>> Nnagain mailing list >>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nnagain mailing list >>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain