From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from secmail.pch.net (secmail.pch.net [206.220.231.87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6A513CB37 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2023 03:54:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from secmail.pch.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by secmail.pch.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4S7XZM0lFrz4xwq0 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2023 00:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: secmail.pch.net (amavisd-new); dkim=pass reason="pass (just generated, assumed good)" header.d=pch.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=pch.net; h= x-mailer:to:references:message-id:date:in-reply-to:from:subject :mime-version:content-type; s=secmail_dkim; t=1697356458; x= 1699948459; bh=4Hc2F+luxFRIaXzaQgbwDFCYhPRGKfPG0y5CYddu4n0=; b=3 WP6T8xKE5d0Xfi/swK4yd9vAig7MQCAN+V/+wD7VY3ioVq0XLGYIBS9FfhDKq+t7 hZE1ZdZR+EZVboV/lJ6XwZHAJ91jRWZQeyK/TJZ15zgv+o2OPhzVu0ZGRvJ2u3Gq /VRtuwDwwT0rixAywoG+Eb1012FfS8RmG4KRK9SVfiSWGkYVd1uGsEaZp25uCzGo HlnmdFAOAHipYS5GDIp1v/Ofad7gQGthQAx6PBIQ2NevUFT1mHhdva+VNAZT4Doq kZ133KyYyK/ncJ49FXQ6kogodytKc2UenITFvju0lV35SigOd+o0qT+pQ3T7krmV yvAoHv3g1NfVhXEyZezJw== X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at secmail.pch.net Received: from secmail.pch.net ([127.0.0.1]) by secmail.pch.net (secmail.pch.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id sfr4LdMgocKJ for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2023 00:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (itv-02 [69.166.14.6]) by secmail.pch.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4S7XZJ6xjjz4xRRY; Sun, 15 Oct 2023 00:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4262B895-1AC6-4749-8C20-EB6B83AC1000"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.700.6\)) From: Bill Woodcock In-Reply-To: <78D8577D-148B-4EB1-993C-62D42521791A@mid.net> Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 09:54:14 +0200 Cc: Ryan Hamel , NANOG , =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= , libreqos Message-Id: <8C413BDE-E519-4B6B-8E32-0334FEADEFC7@pch.net> References: <78D8577D-148B-4EB1-993C-62D42521791A@mid.net> To: Tim Burke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.700.6) Subject: Re: [NNagain] transit and peering costs projections X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 07:54:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4262B895-1AC6-4749-8C20-EB6B83AC1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Exactly. Speed x distance =3D cost. This is _exactly_ why IXPs get set = up. To avoid backhauling bandwidth from Dallas, or wherever. Loss, = latency, out-of-order delivery, and jitter. All lower when you source = your bandwidth closer. -Bill > On Oct 15, 2023, at 06:12, Tim Burke wrote: >=20 > It=E2=80=99s better for customer experience to keep it local instead = of adding 200 miles to the route. All of the competition hauls all of = their traffic up to Dallas, so we easily have a nice 8-10ms latency = advantage by keeping transit and peering as close to the customer as = possible. >=20 > Plus, you can=E2=80=99t forget to mention another ~$10k MRC per pair = in DF costs to get up to Dallas, not including colo, that we can spend = on more transit or better gear! >=20 >> On Oct 14, 2023, at 23:03, Ryan Hamel wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF Why not place the routers in Dallas, aggregate the transit, = IXP, and PNI's there, and backhaul it over redundant dark fiber with = DWDM waves or 400G OpenZR? >>=20 >> Ryan >>=20 >> From: NANOG on behalf of = Tim Burke >> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2023 8:45 PM >> To: Dave Taht >> Cc: Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects = heard this time! ; libreqos = ; NANOG >> Subject: Re: transit and peering costs projections Caution: This is = an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking = links or opening attachments. >>=20 >>=20 >> I would say that a 1Gbit IP transit in a carrier neutral DC can be = had for a good bit less than $900 on the wholesale market. >>=20 >> Sadly, IXP=E2=80=99s are seemingly turning into a pay to play game, = with rates almost costing as much as transit in many cases after you = factor in loop costs. >>=20 >> For example, in the Houston market (one of the largest and fastest = growing regions in the US!), we do not have a major IX, so to get up to = Dallas it=E2=80=99s several thousand for a 100g wave, plus several = thousand for a 100g port on one of those major IXes. Or, a better = option, we can get a 100g flat internet transit for just a little bit = more. >>=20 >> Fortunately, for us as an eyeball network, there are a good number of = major content networks that are allowing for private peering in markets = like Houston for just the cost of a cross connect and a QSFP if you=E2=80=99= re in the right DC, with Google and some others being the outliers. >>=20 >> So for now, we'll keep paying for transit to get to the others (since = it=E2=80=99s about as much as transporting IXP from Dallas), and hoping = someone at Google finally sees Houston as more than a third rate city = hanging off of Dallas. Or=E2=80=A6 someone finally brings a worthwhile = IX to Houston that gets us more than peering to Kansas City. Yeah, I = think the former is more likely. =F0=9F=98=8A >>=20 >> See y=E2=80=99all in San Diego this week, >> Tim >>=20 >> On Oct 14, 2023, at 18:04, Dave Taht wrote: >> > >> > =EF=BB=BFThis set of trendlines was very interesting. Unfortunately = the data >> > stops in 2015. Does anyone have more recent data? >> > >> > = https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdrpeer= ing.net%2Fwhite-papers%2FInternet-Transit-Pricing-Historical-And-Projected= .php&data=3D05%7C01%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7Cc8ebae9f0ecd4b368dcb08dbcd31988= 0%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C638329385118876648%7CUnknow= n%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVC= I6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3DnQeWrGi%2BblMmtiG9u7SdF3JOi1h9Fni7xXo%2Fu= sZRopA%3D&reserved=3D0 >> > >> > I believe a gbit circuit that an ISP can resell still runs at about >> > $900 - $1.4k (?) in the usa? How about elsewhere? >> > >> > ... >> > >> > I am under the impression that many IXPs remain very successful, >> > states without them suffer, and I also find the concept of doing = micro >> > IXPs at the city level, appealing, and now achievable with cheap = gear. >> > Finer grained cross connects between telco and ISP and IXP would = lower >> > latencies across town quite hugely... >> > >> > PS I hear ARIN is planning on dropping the price for, and bundling = 3 >> > BGP AS numbers at a time, as of the end of this year, also. >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Oct 30: = https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnetdev= conf.info%2F0x17%2Fnews%2Fthe-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html&data=3D05%7C0= 1%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7Cc8ebae9f0ecd4b368dcb08dbcd319880%7C81c24bb4f9ec47= 39ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C638329385118876648%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8ey= JWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C= %7C%7C&sdata=3DROLgtoeiBgfAG40UZqS8Zd8vMK%2B0HQB7RV%2FhQRvIcFM%3D&reserved= =3D0 >> > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos --Apple-Mail=_4262B895-1AC6-4749-8C20-EB6B83AC1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEm6XJ0FdpKWJHso4lb6RwSyiLf4cFAmUrmqYACgkQb6RwSyiL f4c2jQ/8C7pudakV0w9iuc9NjxBtNwYtjhxx0/yT4fcANGymH3tBUhcy2qLf7QCv Oi2+PzcWYKiTJAoXAQ+ULZoU2i6eR567QfNokTuJR7JZI3mwE8HVXCImSogy5aSP vPHjo3PhTH6dJ8SYMUS5XEs8Rv4mJnXe7x6WxzmgehnMZSRcVE+4bzlMlXHItKYJ FNj+qOR0mAq1kB2qnvmP6hkiX+p+uyy0HXrq2Jqs4VPoWzAnWsCxeoxXB8Ldv+Yx CWwbkE6XTlsGJarm/76xj2MOh4TigQjLitkzFX3iLj/DuhyJYqg2yW2aI/Gx5SgG u6Df83URM/nmvfGAB3FrvOFPgPRz/KT+yp1ydlx/cdoMYcsmpuz+2GxK317cvpOd fWnjWqB0NNlrhdgxOZYH62XcIP/jA0Xd0sfWkghP/uHmDLE/1QdrFN6Ej721gWOX ZQvy906S/d00nsVF8kK0/opS2XO82tS++Vub5cIXguP1bxJ2q69XxOH6mOPmdAKi n2UV888rilPD76hD1H2lWiqGZiToJBmHY9M0wajl+kN6RWHByA7tmDSnt6up1+DA R2rNtQIs2lOgsN04qRHUlc3iImzIKsW8s5U/MB0fIG4Bfzb7m0Z9NnSgFs5lP0K6 1Qc60RYiDYmp3ouVxVOP+Vy6nyGpdC4St9ySYV+fjeAZLZMPPKw= =u/GR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_4262B895-1AC6-4749-8C20-EB6B83AC1000--