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Thu, 07 Dec 2023 14:16:36 +0000 Received: from [10.0.1.44] (c-73-71-177-82.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [73.71.177.82]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nichols@pollere.net) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a283.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4SmGXz4wKJzlm; Thu, 7 Dec 2023 06:16:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=pollere.net; s=dreamhost; t=1701958595; bh=tdO9ZnTifPobhBOs3ZalIBWs5EUqwGHVXVKIZDpom38=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=j8ffbFmTkVBpBuJpSTuhGV1tPtOGtmAAATcqfrbKwhLnMjprN0J1CTz342R5M1RtQ gqDJQz7diHZFBGHMQJPJJpOIXQ4WgKcr4TH71L++wZhFn+YoKjCP+oZAyfDnTvh/0r iyzpm90m4kCYXu7e7pdVgIZurn19WJJm0KQbqv3y+ZmuOSlLNSjKa9YWZQ8tpO8l58 8+LvOX1reWFdLb9Jga2lw9FTCXGVKc/K09HepSYKtFiok+zpgFVsobkF96uXvIpag4 h+u4us5NCGv9mCUsTXkePboT2ytRopjBrB4Ue91rvqZibnCBXZ+XICea0KUlwu5Xsd 49A3Tte0G2Vcw== Message-ID: <8b422e79-5853-484e-b9b1-bd67d3b7708b@pollere.net> Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2023 06:16:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: en-US To: Bill Woodcock Cc: bloat , nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <6CA05409-11BD-4733-9CB1-14400736F050@pch.net> From: Kathleen Nichols Autocrypt: addr=nichols@pollere.net; 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charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 17:33:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [NNagain] [Bloat] CFP march 1 - network measurement conference X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 14:16:38 -0000 Can I give an email "thumbs up" to Bill Woodcock's email? That information is certainly there in TCP. I don't know how much of QUIC is in the clear. On 12/6/23 6:22 PM, Bill Woodcock via Bloat wrote: > > >> On Dec 6, 2023, at 22:46, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain >> wrote: What would be a >> comprehensive measurement? Should cover all/most relevant areas? > > It’s easy to specify a suite of measurements which is too heavy to be > easily implemented or supported on the network. Also, as you point > out, many things can be derived from raw data, so don’t necessarily > require additional specific measurements. > >> Payload Size: The size of data being transmitted. Event Rate: The >> frequency at which payloads are transmitted. Bitrate: The >> combination of rate and size transferred in a given test. >> Throughput: The data transfer capability achieved on the test >> path. > > All of that can probably be derived from sufficiently finely-grained > TCP data. i.e. if you had a PCAP of a TCP flow that constituted the > measurement, you’d be able to derive all of the above. > >> Bandwidth: The data transfer capacity available on the test path. > > Presumably the goal of a TCP transaction measurement would be to > enable this calculation. > >> Transfer Efficiency: The ratio of useful payload data to the >> overhead data. > > This is a how-its-used rather than a property-of-the-network. If > there are network-inherent overheads, they’re likely to be not > directly visible to endpoints, only inferable, and might require > external knowledge of the network. So, I’d put this out-of-scope. > >> Round-Trip Time (RTT): The ping delay time to the target server and >> back. RTT Jitter: The variation in the delay of round-trip time. >> Latency: The transmission delay time to the target server and >> back. Latency Jitter: The variation in delay of latency. > > RTT is measurable. If Latency is RTT minus processing delay on the > remote end, I’m not sure it’s really measurable, per se, without the > remote end being able to accurately clock itself, or an independent > vantage point adjacent to the remote end. This is the old > one-way-delay measurement problem in different guise, I think. > Anyway, I think RTT is easy and necessary, and I think latency is > difficult and probably an anchor not worth attaching to anything we > want to see done in the near term. Latency jitter likewise. > >> Bit Error Rate: The corrupted bits as a percentage of the total >> transmitted data. > > This seems like it can be derived from a PCAP, but doesn’t really > constitute an independent measurement. > >> Packet Loss: The percentage of packets lost that needed to be >> recovered. > > Yep. > >> Energy Efficiency: The amount of energy consumed to achieve the >> test result. > > Not measurable. > >> Did I overlook something? > > Out-of-order delivery is the fourth classical quality criterion. > There are folks who argue that it doesn’t matter anymore, and others > who (more compellingly, to my mind) argue that it’s at least as > relevant as ever. > > Thus, for an actual measurement suite: > > - A TCP transaction > > …from which we can observe: > > - Loss - RTT (which I’ll just call “Latency” because that’s what > people have called it in the past) - out-of-order delivery - Jitter > in the above three, if the transaction continues long enough > > …and we can calculate: > > - Goodput > > In addition to these, I think it’s necessary to also associate a > traceroute (and, if available and reliable, a reverse-path > traceroute) in order that it be clear what was measured, and a > timestamp, and a digital signature over the whole thing, so we can > know who’s attesting to the measurement. > > -Bill > > > _______________________________________________ Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat