On Oct 8, 2023, at 2:38 AM, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:

Hi Bob,

On 8 October 2023 00:13:07 CEST, rjmcmahon via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Everybody abandoned my local loop. Twisted pair from multiple decades ago into antiquated, windowless COs with punch blocks, with no space nor latency advantage for colocated content & compute, seems to have killed it off.

[SM] Indeed, throughput for DSL is inversely proportional to loop length, so providing 'acceptable' capacity requires sufficiently short wire runs from DSLAM to CPE, and that in turn means moving DSLAMs closer to the end users... which in a densely populated area works well, but in a less densely populated area becomes costly fast. And doing so will only make sense if you get enough customers on such an 'outdoor DSLAM' so might work for the first to built out, but becomes prohibitively unattractive for other ISP later. However terminating the loops in the field clears up lots of spaces in the COs... not that anybody over here moved much compute into these... (there exist too many COs to make that an attractive proposition in spite of all the hype about moving compute to the edge). As is a few well connected data centers for compute seem to work well enough...

I suspect in some towns one can buy out the local loop copper with just a promise of maintenance.

[SM] A clear sign of regulatory failure to me, maintenance of the copper plant inherited from Bell should never have been left to the ISPs to decide about...

The whole CLEC open the loop to competitive access seems to have failed per costs, antiquated technology, limited colocation, an outdated waveguide (otherwise things like CDDI would have won over Cat 5), and market reasons. The early ISPs didn't collocate, they bought T1s and E1s and connected the TDM to statistical multiplexing - no major investment there either.

The RBOCs, SBC (now AT&T) & and VZ went to contract carriage and wireless largely because of the burdens of title II per regulators not being able to create an investment into the OSPs. The 2000 blow up was kinda real.

[SM] Again, I see no fault in title 2 here, but in letting ISPs of the hook on maintaining their copper plant or replace it with FTTH...

She starts out by complaining about trying to place her WiFi in the right place. That's like trying to share a flashlight. She has access to the FCC technology group full of capable engineers. They should have told her to install some structured wire, place more APs, set the carrier and turn down the power.

[SM] I rather read this more as an attempt to built a report with the audience over a shared experience and less as a problem report ;)

My wife works in the garden now using the garden AP SSID with no issues. My daughter got her own carrier too per here Dad dedicating a front end module for her distance learning needs. I think her story to justify title II regulation is a bit made up.

[SM] Hmm, while covid19 lockdown wasn't the strongest example, I agree, I see no good argument for keeping essential infrastructure like internet access in private hands without appropriate oversight. Especially given the numbers for braodband choice for customers, clearly the market is not going to solve the issues at hand.

Also, communications have been essential back before the rural free delivery of mail in 1896. Nothing new here other than hyperbole to justify a 5 member commission acting as the single federal regulator over 140M households and 33M businesses, almost none of which have any idea about the complexities of the internet.

[SM] But the access network is quite different than the internet's core, so not being experts on the core seems acceptable, no? And even 5 members is clearly superior to no oversight at all?

I'm not buying it and don't want to hand the keys to the FCC who couldn't protect journalism nor privacy. Maybe start there, looking at what they didn't do versus blaming contract carriage for a distraction?

[SM] I can speak to the FCC as regulatory agency, but over here IMHO the national regulatory agency does a decent job arbitrating between the interests of both sides.

https://about.usps.com/who/profile/history/rural-free-delivery.htm#:~:text=On%20October%201%2C%201896%2C%20rural,were%20operating%20in%2029%20states.

Bob
My understanding, though I am not 100% certain, is that the baby bells
lobbied to have the CLEC equal access provisions revoked/gutted.
Before this, the telephone companies were required to provide access
to the "last mile" of the copper lines and the switches at wholesale
costs. Once the equal access provisions were removed, the telephone
companies started charging the small phone and DSL providers close to
the retail price for access. The CLEC DSL providers could not stay in
business when they charged a customer $35 / month for Internet service
while the telephone company charged the DSL ISP $35 / month for
access.

---- On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 17:22:10 -0400 Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote ---
I have a lot to unpack from this:

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-397257A1.pdf

the first two on my mind from 2005 are: "FCC adopted its first open
internet policy" and "Competitiveness" As best as I recall, (and
please correct me), this led essentially to the departure of all the
3rd party DSL providers from the field. I had found something
referencing this interpretation that I cannot find right now, but I do
clearly remember all the DSL services you could buy from in the early
00s, and how few you can buy from now. Obviously there are many other
possible root causes.

DSL continued to get better and evolve, but it definately suffers from
many reports of degraded copper quality, but does an estimate exist
for how much working DSL is left?

Q0) How much DSL is in the EU?
Q1) How much DSL is left in the USA?
Q2) What form is it? (VDSL, etc?)

Did competition in DSL vanish because of or not of an FCC related order?

--
Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

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