From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E3D53B2A4 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 17:50:53 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1709247052; x=1709851852; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=FxB6okdEtvmliNfY4b+iT1HWaPvTq77AI73V6ppOlrA=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References: To; b=cMXoQUFGCeorptlE8BG4UfiOG2KZzPFcRP/2Nr9gPw3KnASia05L5WbhbTdPTv07 rrYWZGKPWUXKbdUktkZ7SCz4tWa+ZNTlTXb1p1Aroi+KzKNaDFojkcD0EQl56bp8i wKV/VCfU/9bXJ6iIc636b5xGQ22y5QJnGovDZ4lEAi8STMC739zukbJV9V7ao6azY 2QVpJXXaF6xdPbK8Gac284gpbLop89cYb+Adj0WcpLZjWD646uIq7v1R+MFvhDAs1 4rEaXiw2iFZlZIapw8oQ3Fq9SV3PvsyOn+iP0uYxV3ScRVp6xo1RyTvTqOUr6t+FL aQRs6RGpcHLiGjGxJA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([77.6.38.252]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N1fis-1qif5A08Ns-011vwy; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 23:50:52 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.400.31\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 23:50:41 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <95F8CCFC-82CE-42EA-8DAC-B52C35E058A3@gmx.de> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.400.31) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:nOeRnItreSYqx5QDkWa9+XQP62fmBHPXZBTi95Uq5/6y5vKRxLf tIcl/fl5lBSX6DD0bvIQ+RE2reOz7tz7xnitnYAxCsXm/7IsYrim8LQTETk8y0K4Y7X+8gi b8cGKrB3HwvvUWgznoizrIN24NFTi16k/jYflJ3X4OcF6bBmgIOz5TCfc4cywo1Kx9kofr4 3zSPL//IqCPJomy0U5HrQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:hQcgNmInbvE=;IV7zh+G3NwmkEMVmhabBufj5vTk 3/mA7/rr+ExzIjEyZECNY1drZsBXS8uUPvlbIYIzLiQ9obBfF4G0puhfdwk8WSBYmcKeJrBkb f79dh5he2Y1961iFCNkGEQpmaFqaaaERzP5iZo4SuVCRtW+zVrbID2zo97UUrgBsmsopDc562 IYiG+HbWkIe8qDpFtCOHHTF8YQfqNgvY3Kz5HHd8+FzscRVhSQF4BlEFn5MZdEIvwIBlZdYI8 HO2ELz/qpGMO8tbIKCzCjh45bzDq6bBKJrEytdeRrXbCqaXXO5UvAPNJ38RIN2WkU1LB33EYs mhzJvyGfq7P9Mflt9C5tE0u+/cNlg8kn0pE0DjLRHMwxc3PqLniiOAFcDQUYE2lsuGyKh9mPK xqWzIp1xyz5u2Q63t026ZtYq6CjaaRMvW57jG9JLe1zwokgb/Ezyoo1bNpQnSAbfexmz9aFhO OBUYOBZJeSpJNzgpHbrSjrLbGAsLOZJeqJHrco2ydIwyGb4w2YbZBE8/g0HnEkqTvPzQLKsdm GumCJKW1EKSRDg263Hje5RPeqXvwHITe5+k3XUfFwKOjN0/WvwXAbN11tBFBmSeh/VA+9N2cc Fc3dKyV0zM09oPX6fJEcM7cCPKSMVGuo/wYqV8E5g25Y1plxXYm/uwio2s/+7DLfj4qQsoiS7 h+k9aIRzq7ygyPWFBIc/k8EcmMy7uSo7acdz6bQfu/xCa8Mdtq3LIbDfBr1ONmOyuBs1q+DqE 7KhzekrwGOGcN2+HlUwsjqSnaf2q5isC0zIfCMkFwD0ToDakaB60Q30oZxJMSg8xultCQ+Nl/ kcK81+DU6ePZbb4MacqLLQm80TPzYUjNhinMRj0RLLw4Q= Subject: Re: [NNagain] Geoff Huston's panel X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 22:50:54 -0000 > On 29. Feb 2024, at 18:26, Lee via Nnagain = wrote: >=20 > On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 9:12=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote: >>=20 >> He is being incredibly provocative this week. It hurt to sit through = this. >>=20 >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DgxO73fH0VqM >=20 > Yes, he's provocative - but also entertaining. And don't forget the = audience: >=20 > ABOUT APRICOT >=20 > Representing Asia Pacific's largest international Internet conference, > Asia Pacific Regional Internet Conference on Operational Technologies > (APRICOT) draws many of the world's best Internet engineers, > operators, researchers, service providers, users and policy > communities from over 50 countries to teach, present, and do their own > human networking. >=20 > His last slide deck seemed to be a call to arms. He's near the end of > his career, so for all the Internet engineers, etc. I saw it as a > "here's where we're going. Do you want to contribute to this trend or > take the Internet in a different direction?" >=20 > For example, after talking about CDNs and how most content is now > local he brings up the bit about if 10% of your traffic costs you 90% > of your carriage costs, if I was a rational provider, I would say to > all those customers who need that 10% of the traffic go find someone > else. I'm not going to do it. Don't forget, this is a deregulated > world - you can do that. There is no universal obligation to carry > default. >=20 > Does network neutrality require an ISP to connect you to the Internet > at large? At least the EU sees it that way: = https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=3DCELEX:32015R212= 0 An internet access service provides access to the internet, and in = principle to all the end-points thereof, irrespective of the network = technology and terminal equipment used by end-users. However, for = reasons outside the control of providers of internet access services, = certain end points of the internet may not always be accessible. = Therefore, such providers should be deemed to have complied with their = obligations related to the provision of an internet access service = within the meaning of this Regulation when that service provides = connectivity to virtually all end points of the internet. Providers of = internet access services should therefore not restrict connectivity to = any accessible end-points of the internet. So you need to at least try... not sure about other jurisdictions. > Or do they get to drop the "expensive" traffic that > requires connecting to a transit provider (or however they do it now > to connect to the global Internet). >=20 > I was a bit dubious about the assertion that most traffic stays within > the AS but surprise, surprise, surprise (most people here are old > enough to remember Gomer Pyle.. right?).. youtube content is in the > Verizon network. Start wireshark, get the IP address of the youtube > server and > $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:803:f00::e > traceroute to 2600:803:f00::e (2600:803:f00::e), 30 hops max, 72 byte = packets > <.. snip ..> > 3 2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701] 33.323 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324 > [AS701] 2.542 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701] 33.315 ms > 4 * * * > 5 2600:803:6af::6 [AS701] 3.843 ms 3.838 ms 3.834 ms > 6 2600:803:f00::e [AS701] 2.911 ms 2.216 ms 2.472 ms >=20 > Do the same for Netflix and I get three [??] different ASs: > $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 > traceroute to 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 > (2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617), 30 hops max, 72 byte > packets > <.. snip ..> > 5 2600:803:9af::82 [AS701] 8.048 ms 2600:803:9af::5a [AS701] 8.297 > ms 2600:803:2::5a [AS701] 8.294 ms > 6 * 2620:107:4000:c5c0::f3fd:f [*] 2.846 ms > 2620:107:4000:c5c1::f3fd:20 [*] 2.810 ms > 7 2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d5b1 [*] 8.148 ms > 2620:107:4000:cfff::f203:54b1 [*] 5.289 ms > 2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d4b1 [*] 4.300 ms > 8 2620:107:4000:a793::f000:3863 [*] 4.865 ms > 2620:107:4000:a610::f000:2403 [*] 5.245 ms > 2620:107:4000:acd3::f000:e060 [*] 5.201 ms > 9 * * * > 10 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509] 4.881 > ms 4.864 ms 4.848 ms > 11 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509] 6.351 > ms 6.075 ms 5.935 ms >=20 > Does it violate network neutrality that youtube content takes the > "fast lane" getting to me? >=20 > and just for chuckles.. > $ dig 2024.apricot.net aaaa +short > 2001:dd8:f::1 >=20 > $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2001:dd8:f::1 > traceroute to 2001:dd8:f::1 (2001:dd8:f::1), 30 hops max, 72 byte = packets > <.. snip ..> > 3 2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701] 27.390 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326 > [AS701] 5.711 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701] 27.384 ms > 4 * * * > 5 * * 2001:2035:0:bb3::1 [AS1299] 7.235 ms > 6 2001:2034:1:73::1 [AS1299] 7.763 ms 6.033 ms 5.996 ms > 7 2001:2034:1:b7::1 [AS1299] 11.530 ms 2001:2034:1:b8::1 [AS1299] > 10.704 ms * > 8 * * * > 9 2001:2000:3080:230d::2 [AS1299] 72.609 ms 72.594 ms 73.096 ms > 10 * * * > 11 * * * > 12 * * * > 13 * 2402:7800:10::2 [AS4826] 289.033 ms * > 14 2402:7800:10:1::12 [AS4826] 290.608 ms 292.440 ms 290.840 ms > 15 2402:7800:10:8::16 [AS4826] 228.836 ms 229.406 ms 231.379 ms > 16 2001:dd8:8:38::2 [AS4608] 233.803 ms 231.332 ms 233.572 ms > 17 2001:dd8:f::1 [AS4608] 231.822 ms 231.137 ms 232.772 ms >=20 > Oh my.. I'm betting that's a lot more than 100 miles away :) On a direct fiber path these 231ms of RTT would allow for ~231*100 =3D = 23100 Km or more than half around the earth... But given how weird routing can get these 23Mm might end up just next = door... (for a time the Swiss ISP Init7 had some european traffc go via = Ashburn VA, to make a point) Regards Sebastian >=20 > Regards, > Lee > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain