From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail22.out.flockmail.com (mail22.out.flockmail.com [3.212.108.224]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0E163B2A4 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2024 14:24:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-out.flockmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out.flockmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58984100135 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2024 19:24:30 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; bh=me4BWtFDTLeAUpKQVGGJa6Pguv5NCna81hPLM5aAjBw=; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=3kitty.org; h=date:mime-version:to:message-id:references:in-reply-to:subject:from:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:cc:reply-to; q=dns/txt; s=titan1; t=1708975470; v=1; b=CKpNlgIq463jShx36LCgGpfIeXJ2svYagi4K0PLMwIycUyXJHwj25csZeH30WBDC5fy2Uqn5 O2aN2eKnxrwGpo0jDlj3qk8wLduZFy4uLThcZtDqp57E5vMvZe9Ys8FqStneuth4dmPpUoCGWpX Axy7xeTyKQqNBl0iPbkiOB/I= Received: from [192.168.1.100] (c-76-137-180-175.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [76.137.180.175]) by smtp-out.flockmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0B1901000FD for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2024 19:24:29 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <98a6dfd6-3731-4a33-8a84-76696813fd74@3kitty.org> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2024 11:24:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net References: Content-Language: en-US Feedback-ID: :jack@3kitty.org:3kitty.org:flockmailId From: Jack Haverty Autocrypt: addr=jack@3kitty.org; keydata= xsDNBGCm2psBDADGOWO8n9wfkDW9ZUEo8o+SZ5MU9us2il+fS4EFM/RaZFIbQ+P72bExzSd3 WnJdPfqO1O7Q+dRnvVO9+G2/9oT/uRZVaE05+SothzKZBv32HcZoUkdNZOTqSkdo3EwNPjid LLxX+dMBxMpR3pBdvGN8Z7lnZe6fV4QO2xtd58y3B33AVZJp+RuNwucby9dY2meyy2BJVKrx mKhYXAucVyg0ALVIchHt9UknVW4aLvQF+oMfzXVvCWeguW+DvbyazVceWGO7FSgUJ8ED3Ii7 xAR5zZJ1LASoMhG1ixg07P9Uy4ohV6c+c0yV9SY4yqhZ3+zN2cm9h/aXpwjSuiVVAJbK7zzb FjI+h89dbnaVQrLx6GikV0OVYqC6TCeMfCFZQAJLs1icxQi3BLL7O1fbTGatEfTgLa5nqfKq K/D/HlOCUeFxqZI8hXvT5dG4e1m3ilpF2/ytcWKSVg3d699UFntPv3sEbAQwwfXsnuD4Hem6 0Ao0/z41n8x1aeZE80FdkpEAEQEAAc0eSmFjayBIYXZlcnR5IDxqYWNrQDNraXR0eS5vcmc+ wsEJBBMBCAAzFiEEZLvMn5vmvTAlFEILdGzDIkA7jlAFAmCm2pwCGwMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsC BRYCAwEAAAoJEHRswyJAO45QuX0L/jOluv8fr/BmuEEQsWWGW6oARIbjDQrI93kXIJXuPnfp tGjkx/f1TMIzI2B9s/tejiYE7IZOhWbX1YvKF0UbkSJi50UyV9XtYRnLdD5TcksKB4luDF8S R+nj5WBm17Bp8qwriCMgA1jGL2wQ7J1KUw4Q/gsMcjhn/39PevswkriU2qqVplfCs9yTTMU5 SvtE2U9F3Y1ZINHn3kUysvxhRFd+Oh3PocWHmVE+hkII+qsra6z4eztDgoB+vqxmOJEdtvex GhT8OKu74DacguZVfu/AV+cwpX701sdjJrMyKjcv8uhFLM/E5gf6kSUAFxBVwe6pNDmAgmbS c0fAFrZjgXxNxxndpu/8OAUDVzKg+l5WJ0nWss9Q14BwA+FcoclO3lwzFu7jOiLvkm7jQkFB o+p8Owe4iAED1KK/aocIa/RiD4sZ3KXUJ92kkemZ1Qe2XpFVdzxaQDG0huNkc5Mie9rdt62O Ae+5cYdPeWmBVn+pFNs5H09kQQbVR5pUxe2Aps7AzQRgptqcAQwAzzougHNMFr/O/L8HnNJW 1YyOuX0PEVNUXQPwkxKuD8bAXsPr4Hv1a+840ByesiJSadhQgVSMruRqoQC5tTkbEWkqlfDW waNAdqCJOXl2T6gtK7RpcHNx7+/du/gCAhHOXqH1Qfs0Zi3YEbR/kQFRP3wD4GiCvHSny8zJ X9plIHqQGoE5DePNAtE2KimbFMsjguqJgq5x0tMf3qEaMNd0IGTStGpcC49iss71slotH091 Y1Yo9CpzL6rj8IP0BfssEujAvf3Gbf1oi92JRE3s2humFDfPvSlHmRIfWPQ4qFOw1zmlzsV1 eg83gErKbjaDdkbwQA85RTmMVKNVvonM80WB6jAg8tlJ5VlYlpbzASpJRNj+FL1LLBQxCbPU eFwrzqYgNvtdKR7j5nTgdndCxq+2aws/aAjdL10S8yeH7ZOpNPzjDJfMSt/L1O25zPUhXdQC 9AZNYsfyV7rf+POEgVpIEth1fT9WbmS0rZxRd/+y628n31GicbA+teN890vdABEBAAHCwPYE GAEIACAWIQRku8yfm+a9MCUUQgt0bMMiQDuOUAUCYKbanQIbDAAKCRB0bMMiQDuOUF1LC/4q 4pLtmDt6TIET2H7zGj5ie3ng7kC7YqtFPYwgLQzs9WeqQ/5WowEmHOPonBcqhGbtDj22GebQ 7w0RoUHb+aXsbC85I/C+nWgT1ZcfMBTHGlBcIQvOCNG18g87Ha9jgD0HnW4bRUkZmGMpP0Yd TLM+PBNu41AK6z82VPQrfTuPKqwAAS2FK/RpF2xB7rjpETzIPl9Dj9EAkRbviURIg0BQkmej l02FLzGmlTfBIDHBdEgzvD71Z5H9BP8DAbxBzonSTzx/KZyv7njSUzdVLW+5O/WzPgb4Qt4I jQd66LS9HWS1G7AcLjiSQAIf8v7JkX3NwtN+NGX5cmt2p0e9FOOKWXVgCIgPN3/712EEGAgq UUxuPEBD5DrRCgjZL40eHxQza2BAhoVoWopUCGZdCCZJP3iF7818wIph0U393DELG9NAGLJa qkoA8KBimXp9Rd2QvpA864JRy/REoEOEF9lm3clriLyEqaL/VMIQRhl/VSkUuez4Wr68eHus TFdwePg= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------RWsrKAhbuu8NY498UeduBfC3" X-F-Verdict: SPFVALID X-Titan-Src-Out: 1708975470232323488.4312.7360977889236224420@prod-use1-smtp-out1002. X-CMAE-Score: 0 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=LLBgQoW9 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=65dce56e a=cdvcmBiFVbz+0Uto4GLkPg==:117 a=cdvcmBiFVbz+0Uto4GLkPg==:17 a=CEWIc4RMnpUA:10 a=13zjGPudsaEWiJwPRgMA:9 a=0XCVu8LBgLiRvA8kYgsA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=UA3JmgB3LQ0IwdPetX0A:9 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=mVcgwxjBTkr3zjpDlhIA:9 a=FfaGCDsud1wA:10 a=ENSYiSlZ7Lp3pezrzBQA:9 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Subject: Re: [NNagain] The FCC 2024 Section 706 Report, GN Docket No. 22-270 is out! X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2024 19:24:30 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------RWsrKAhbuu8NY498UeduBfC3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------oSgMXUrz0tnZHIGmGf6RtyRp"; protected-headers="v1" From: Jack Haverty To: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net Message-ID: <98a6dfd6-3731-4a33-8a84-76696813fd74@3kitty.org> Subject: Re: [NNagain] The FCC 2024 Section 706 Report, GN Docket No. 22-270 is out! References: In-Reply-To: --------------oSgMXUrz0tnZHIGmGf6RtyRp Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9THR4pC8J09M8JwGanmHrWoX" --------------9THR4pC8J09M8JwGanmHrWoX Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------c2SgKfy8HszVLNtdkNl044av" --------------c2SgKfy8HszVLNtdkNl044av Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 T24gMi8yNi8yNCAwNzowNiwgRGF2ZSBUYWh0IHZpYSBObmFnYWluIHdyb3RlOg0KPiBJIHdp c2ggd2UgY291bGQgZG8gYSBsaXZlIGRlbW9uc3RyYXRpb24gb24NCj4gdGVsZXZpc2lvbg0K DQpJdCdzIGJlZW4geWVhcnMsIGJ1dCB3aGVuIEkgdGFsa2VkIHdpdGggbm9uLXRlY2hpZSBw ZW9wbGUgdG8gaGVscCB0aGVtIA0KdW5kZXJzdGFuZCB0aGUgZGlmZmVyZW5jZSBiZXR3ZWVu IGJhbmR3aWR0aCBhbmQgbGF0ZW5jeSBJIHVzZWQgYSANCmZhbWlsaWFyIGh1bWFuLWh1bWFu IHRhc2sgdG8gZ2V0IHRoZSBpZGVhcyBhY3Jvc3MuwqAgRS5nLiwgdGFrZSBhIGdyb3VwIA0K b2YgcGVvcGxlIGF0IHRoZSBlbmQgb2YgYSB3b3JrIHNlc3Npb24sIHdobyBhcmUgdHJ5aW5n IHRvIHJlYWNoIGEgDQpjb25zZW5zdXMgYWJvdXQgd2hlcmUgdG8gZ28gZm9yIGx1bmNoLsKg IFdoZW4gZXZlcnlvbmUncyBzaXR0aW5nIGFyb3VuZCBhIA0KdGFibGUsIGEgcXVpY2sgZGlz Y3Vzc2lvbiBjYW4gaGFwcGVuIGFuZCBhIGRlY2lzaW9uIHJlYWNoZWQuwqDCoCBUaGVuIG1h a2UgDQp0aGVtIGFsbCBnbyB0byBzZXBhcmF0ZSBvZmZpY2VzIHNjYXR0ZXJlZCBhcm91bmQg dGhlIGJ1aWxkaW5nIGFuZCANCmFjaGlldmUgYSBzaW1pbGFyIGNvbnNlbnN1cywgY29tbXVu aWNhdGluZyBvbmx5IGJ5IHNlbmRpbmcgc2hvcnQgbm90ZXMgDQp0byBlYWNoIG90aGVyIGNh cnJpZWQgYnkgdm9sdW50ZWVyIGNvdXJpZXJzIChvciBwZXJoYXBzIDE0MC1jaGFyYWN0ZXIg DQpTTVMgdGV4dHMpLsKgwqAgVGhlIGRpZmZlcmVuY2UgaW4gImxhdGVuY3kiIGFuZCBpdHMg ZWZmZWN0IG9uIHRoZSB0aW1lIGl0IA0KdGFrZXMgdG8gZmluaXNoIHRoZSB0YXNrIGJlY29t ZXMgY2xlYXIgcXVpY2tseS4NCg0KSXQgc2VlbXMgbGlrZSBvbmUgY291bGQgb3JjaGVzdHJh dGUgYSBzaW1pbGFyIGRlbW9uc3RyYXRpb24gdGFyZ2V0dGVkIA0KdG93YXJkIGEgbm9uLXRl Y2huaWNhbCBhdWRpZW5jZSAtLSBlLmcuLCBtZW1iZXJzIG9mIHNvbWUgZ292ZXJubWVudCAN CmNvbW1pdHRlZSBtZWV0aW5nIGluIGEgcm9vbSB2ZXJzdXMgdGhlIHNhbWUgbWVldGluZyB3 aXRoIHBhcnRpY2lwYW50cyANCnNjYXR0ZXJlZCBhY3Jvc3MgdGhlIGJ1aWxkaW5nIGFuZCBp bnRlcmFjdGlvbnMgcGVyZm9ybWVkIGJ5IHN0YWZmZXJzIA0KcnVubmluZyBhcm91bmQgYXMg InRoZSBuZXR3b3JrIi7CoMKgIEV2ZW4gaWYgdGhlIHN0YWZmZXJzIGNhbiBjb252ZXkgaHVn ZSANCnN0YWNrcyBvZiBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiAoaGlnaCBiYW5kd2lkdGgpLCB0aGUgdGltZSBp dCB0YWtlcyBmb3IgdGhlbSB0byANCmdldCBmcm9tIG9uZSBtZW1iZXIgdG8gb3RoZXJzIChs YXRlbmN5KSBxdWlja2x5IGJlY29tZXMgdGhlIHByaW1hcnkgDQpjb25zdHJhaW50Lg0KDQpU aGlzIHdhcyBhbHNvIGEgZ29vZCB3YXkgdG8gaWxsdXN0cmF0ZSB0byBub24tdGVjaGllcyBo b3cgd2ViIHBhZ2VzIA0Kd29yaywgYW5kIHdoeSBpdCBzb21ldGltZXMgdGFrZXMgYSBsb25n IHRpbWUgdG8gZ2V0IHRoZSBlbnRpcmUgcGFnZSANCmxvYWRlZC7CoMKgIEdvIHRvIHRoZSBs aWJyYXJ5IHRvIGdldCB0aGUgdGV4dC7CoMKgIE5vdyBnbyB0byB0aGUgYXJ0IA0KZGVwYXJ0 bWVudCB0byBnZXQgdGhlIGJhbm5lcnMuwqDCoCBOb3cgZ28gdG8gdGhlIHBob3RvIGFyY2hp dmVzIHRvIGdldCB0aGUgDQpwaWN0dXJlcy7CoMKgIE5vdyBnbyB0byB0aGF0IGN1c3RvbWVy IHRvIGdldCB0aGUgYWRzIHlvdSBwcm9taXNlZCB0byANCnNob3cuwqAgLi4uLi4NCg0KSmFj ayBIYXZlcnR5DQoNCg== --------------c2SgKfy8HszVLNtdkNl044av Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/26/24 07:06, Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote:
I wish we could do a live demonstration on
television

It's been years, but when I talked with non-techie people to help them understand the difference between bandwidth and latency I used a familiar human-human task to get the ideas across.=C2=A0 E.g., take= a group of people at the end of a work session, who are trying to reach a consensus about where to go for lunch.=C2=A0 When everyone's sitting around a table, a quick discussion can happen and a decision reached.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Then make them all go to separate offices scatte= red around the building and achieve a similar consensus, communicating only by sending short notes to each other carried by volunteer couriers (or perhaps 140-character SMS texts).=C2=A0=C2=A0 The differ= ence in "latency" and its effect on the time it takes to finish the task becomes clear quickly.

It seems like one could orchestrate a similar demonstration targetted toward a non-technical audience -- e.g., members of some government committee meeting in a room versus the same meeting with participants scattered across the building and interactions performed by staffers running around as "the network".=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ev= en if the staffers can convey huge stacks of information (high bandwidth), the time it takes for them to get from one member to others (latency) quickly becomes the primary constraint.

This was also a good way to illustrate to non-techies how web pages work, and why it sometimes takes a long time to get the entire page loaded.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Go to the library to get the text.=C2=A0=C2=A0 No= w go to the art department to get the banners.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Now go to the photo archiv= es to get the pictures.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Now go to that customer to get the ads you = promised to show.=C2=A0 .....

Jack Haverty

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