From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19AF63CB37 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2023 22:02:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.19] (c-24-130-176-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [24.130.176.79]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1EEC61B26F; Wed, 18 Oct 2023 19:02:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com 1EEC61B26F DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1697680941; bh=HyYskd5+ERzKqo2vuumbgFBz0vzc1w/WsugRhmSnG4I=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:CC:From; b=JDvvi0E27rRTutK7ZMTsCGE4Cwug9TDBVzr2jQqJK5Es2yva4GUUB+KAfIwJFtq/I 84055h0Pzh6N7xxmoHZNRydbzXbQIjwQZj0+6YY24GVK77qeWVDG1ynESpnC5sbxWy /WxFXo7HrIdZwAWVEZ5eph+TdY01B8YHi9uiJgJo= In-Reply-To: <7501q812-q6oo-29o5-924p-861s4n0q30p3@ynat.uz> References: <9f79b6f4b45c45c6d2fd2a43783f0157@rjmcmahon.com> <6a03ab3b-8e1c-4727-9fd9-07a38db4fb73@rjmcmahon.com> <2084BE53-6EAD-4480-B265-374C6A0F4874@gmx.de> <7D00C729-88AF-418B-991A-43C98E022CE6@gmx.de> <54f83edbf9fd8d21f297215ff757afb2@rjmcmahon.com> <7501q812-q6oo-29o5-924p-861s4n0q30p3@ynat.uz> X-Referenced-Uid: 00011729567702d5 Thread-Topic: Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati? X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true X-Blue-Identity: !l=988&o=43&fo=15848&pl=918&po=0&qs=PREFIX&f=HTML&m=!%3AODY4NDIxODAtZDYzYS00ZmFiLTk1N2EtZjE0NWVlYzg4ZGQ1%3ASU5CT1g%3D%3AMDAwMTE3Mjk1Njc3MDJkNQ%3D%3D%3AANSWERED&p=913&q=SHOW User-Agent: Android MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----035EUFEPP874MV1VBELZ1YIS9WFGZ6" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert McMahon Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 19:02:15 -0700 To: David Lang CC: Sebastian Moeller , Dave Taht via Nnagain Message-ID: <99c642b8-933e-4847-aa69-84454b5e0128@rjmcmahon.com> Subject: Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati? X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 02:02:22 -0000 ------035EUFEPP874MV1VBELZ1YIS9WFGZ6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 It's $428 per ac ceiling mount hardwired device, no verticals=2E It's $503 = per vertical for rg6 with patch n paint, internal walls only=2E The asset= value add for a rg6 jack is basically zero=2E The asset value add for whol= e home, life support capable, future proof,=C2=A0 low power, structured fib= er & remote radio head is $2,857=2E Staying ceiling mount helps a lot, no = need for holes in the walls and no patch and paint=2E All homes sold in t= he U=2ES=2E will have to do this per 2027 fire codes=2E The smart ones will= connect the fiber fronthaul to capture the $2,857=2E Home networking is se= cond behind in unit laundry for landlords=2E Rent increase for 100Gb/s poin= t to point full duplex FiWi won't be known until after the $100M NRE spend = to create the radio sticks=2E No security vulnerabilities compared to thos= e found in Linux computers=2E The radio stick is DSPs in transistors and op= tics=2E No general purpose CPU to exploit=2E https://www=2Escmagazine=2Eco= m/news/thousands-of-devices-exposed-to-critical-cisco-ios-xe-software-bug = Bob On Oct 18, 2023, 5:40 PM, at 5:40 PM, David Lang wro= te: >On Sat, 14 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: > >> On being unleashed, I think= this applies to consumer electronics too=2E >Not >> sure why HDMI class c= ables will be needed=2E WiFi 7 is spec'd at 16 >MIMO radios >> at 45Gb/s p= er front end module=2E Add some hw >compression/decompression, I >> think = it can carry even HDMI Utlra High Speed or 8K=2E And the content >will >> = likely be coming from the cloud too, so the need for a short HDMI >cable ki= nda >> goes away=2E > >until you have a few people in an area all trying t= o do the same thing, >not they >EACH need that much low-latency bandwith, = and it just doesn't work >well=2E > >> Maybe I'm unique of being tired of h= aving rats' nests of cables to >connect >> things=2E My thoughts are no mo= re cables other than structured fiber >and >> structured AC which both are= long lived, multiple decades or more, >and hence >> are a one and done ty= pe of spend=2E > >It's much more practical to go to a single USB-C cable (p= ower, video, >etc) than >it is to go completely wireless when you are stat= ionary=2E > >> I'm not a fan of PLC, mixing power and comm=2E I've installe= d AFCI >circuit >> breakers for all my family, including the in laws=2E Th= ese can trigger >easily >> when other signals are multiplexed=2E >> >> The= re were so many things that went wrong in The Bronx where 11 >people died = >> including children=2E An AFCI breaker would likely have prevented that >= fire=2E >> Working auto door closers would have helped=2E Providing heat p= umps >would have >> helped too so kids didn't have to use electric resisti= ve space >heaters which >> are terrible by my judgment=2E >> >> It's hard = to believe that Notre Dame burned down too=2E We've got so >> improvement = to do on life support systems=2E > >what's the retrofit cost vs the incrime= ntal cost? (ROI timeframe), >that's >usually overlooked in these 'this tec= hnology is clearly better, >everyone should >be forced to switch to it' di= scussions=2E > >(and don't get me started on Rent Control, common in NYC, w= hich >discourages >investments by landlords) > >David Lang > >> https://en= =2Ewikipedia=2Eorg/wiki/2022_Bronx_apartment_fire >> >> Bob >>> Hi Bob, >>>= >>> >>>> On Oct 13, 2023, at 19:20, rjmcmahon >wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Sebastian, >>>> >>>> It was the ISP tech support o= ver the phone=2E Trying to help install >a home >>>> network over the phon= e w/o a technician isn't easy=2E >>> >>> [SM] Ah, okay=2E I would never ev= en think about calling my ISP when >>> considering changes to my home netwo= rk (for one, I would rather >>> McGywer this, and also my ISP does not real= ly offer that as a >>> servicedsdw), I guess different service offerings in= different >>> countries=2E >>> >>> >>>> In many U=2ES=2E states, smoke d= etectors are required to be no more >that 30' >>>> apart, must be AC power= ed, battery backed up and must communicate >with one >>>> another=2E The s= moke sensor needs to be replaced every ten years max=2E >>> >>> [SM] Inter= sting! Over here detectors are also mandatory (but no >>> distance or netwo= rking requirements, it is special rooms like bed >>> rooms that need to hav= e one)=2E Also over here no AC requirement=2E >>> >>> >>>> It's a good pl= ace to install remote radio heads, or even full blown >APs, >>>> for both = internet access points and for life support sensors=2E >>> >>> [SM] I agre= e, and with an AC requirement powering such APs/radio >>> heads is not rock= et science either, heck in a first iteration one >>> might even use PLC to = bring data to the APs=2E=2E=2E >>> >>> >>>> 10G NRE spends stopped over a= decade ago=2E Early adopters aren't >likely >>>> going to wire 10G over c= opper in their homes=2E >>> >>> [SM] Over here active 2=2E5 Gbps ethernet = are just becoming cheap >>> enough for enthusiasts to switch over to, and 2= =2E5 has the advantage >of >>> operating well even over most cat5 wiring (f= ew homes I know will >push >>> anywhere close to the typical 100m copper et= hernet limit, most will >be >>> fine with < 30m)=2E >>> >>> >>>> 100G onl= y goes 4 meters so copper really isn't an option for future >proof >>>> co= mm cable throughout buildings=2E >>> >>> [SM] Indeed, but I am not 100% su= re what use-case would justify >going >>> 100Gbps in a typical home? Sure i= f one switches to fiber wiring and >>> 100Gbps is only marginally more expe= nsive than 1 or 10 Gbps why not? >>> >>>> Fiber to WiFi seems straight for= ward to me=2E >>> >>> [SM] This might be related to your professional back= ground though? >;) >>> Just kidding, I think you are simply a few years ahe= ad of the rest >of >>> us, as you know what is in the pipeline=2E >>> >>> = >>>> People don't want to be leashed to plugs so the last meters have to >= be >>>> wireless=2E >>> >>> [SM] Yes and no=2E People did not bother abou= t wiring office desks or >>> even smart TVs, but smart phones and tablets a= re a different kettle >of >>> fish, as are laptops, that might be operated = wired on the desk but >>> wireless in the rest of the house=2E I also note = that more and more >>> laptops come without built in ethernet (personally I= detest that, an >>> rj45 jack is not that thick that a laptop body can not= be planned >>> around that, leaving some more room for e=2Eg=2E NVMe socke= ts or >simplify >>> cooling a bit, ultra-thin is IMHO not really in the end= -users' >>> interest, but I digress)=2E >>> >>> >>>> We need to standardi= zed to the extent that we can on one wireless >tech >>>> (similar to Ether= net for wired) and a proposal is to use 802=2E11 >since >>>> that's sellin= g in volume, driven by mobile hand sets=2E >>> >>> [SM] Sure 802=2E11 is l= ikely to stay by virtue of being relatively >>> ubiquitous and by being gen= erally already good enough for many use >>> cases (with road-maps for tackl= ing more demanding use-cases, and I >>> very much include your fiwi proposa= l here)=2E >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Bob >>>>> Hi Bob, >>>>>> On Oct 12, 20= 23, at 17:55, Robert McMahon via Nnagain >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Hi David, >>>>>> The vendors I know don't roll thei= r own os code either=2E The make >their >>>>>> own release still mostly ba= sed from Linux and they aren't tied to >the >>>>>> openwrt release process= =2E >>>>>> I think GUIs on CPEs are the wrong direction=2E Consumer network= >equipment >>>>>> does best when it's plug and play=2E Consumers don't ha= ve all the >skills >>>>>> needed to manage an in home packet network that = includes wifi=2E >>>>> [SM] That is both true, and (currently?) unachievab= le=2E To run a >>>>> network connected to the internet securely requires to= make a >number >>>>> of policy decisions trading-off the required/desired = connectivity >>>>> versus the cost in security (either cost as effort of ma= intaining >>>>> security or cost in an increase in attack surface)=2E >>>>>= The in-side the home situation, has IMHO drastically improved >with >>>>>= the availability of off-the-shelf mesh network gear from >commercial >>>>>= vendors, with easy to follow instructions and/or apps to find >decent >>>>= > AP placement=2E >>>>> For structured wiring, I would agree that requires= both an >unusual >>>>> skill set (even though doing structured wiring itse= lf is not hard, >>>>> just doing it in a way that blends into an apartment = without >signaling >>>>> DIY-ness is more involved)=2E >>>>>> I recently fi= xed a home network for my inlaws=2E It's a combo of >>>>>> structured wire= and WiFi APs=2E I purchased the latest equipment >from >>>>>> Amazon vs u= se the ISP provided equipment=2E I can do this >reasonably well >>>>>> bec= ause I'm familiar with the chips inside=2E >>>>>> The online tech support s= tarted with trepidation as he was >concerned >>>>>> that the home owner, i= =2Ee me, wasn't as skilled as the ISP >technicians=2E >>>>>> He suggested = we schedule that but I said we were good to go w/o >one=2E >>>>> [SM] What= "online tech support"? From the AP vendor or from the >ISP? >>>>> The latt= er might have a script recommending ISP technicians more >for >>>>> commerc= ial considerations than technical ones=2E=2E=2E >>>>>> He asked to speak to= my father in law when we were all done=2E He >told >>>>>> him, "You're lu= cky to have a son in law that know what he's >doing=2E My >>>>>> techs are= n't as good, and I really liked working with him too=2E" >>>>>> I say this = not to brag, as many on this list could do the >equivalent, >>>>>> but to = show that we really need to train lots of technicians on >things >>>>>> li= ke RF and structured wiring=2E Nobody should be "lucky" to get a >quality = >>>>>> in home network=2E We're not lucky to have a flush toilet anymore= =2E >This >>>>>> stuff is too important to rely on luck=2E >>>>> [SM] Mmm= h, that got me thinking, maybe we should think about >always >>>>> running = network wiring parallel to electric cables so each power >>>>> socket could= easily house an ethernet plug as well=2E=2E=2E (or one per >room >>>>> to = keep the cost lower and avoid overly much "dark" copper)? Sort >of >>>>> pu= t this into the building codes/best current practice >documents=2E=2E=2E (I= >>>>> understand starting now, will still only solve the issue over many >= >>>> decades, but at least we would be making some inroads; and >speaking o= f >>>>> decades, maybe putting fiber there instead of copper might be a >mo= re >>>>> future-oriented approach)? >>>>>> Bob >>>>>> On Oct 11, 2023, at 3= :58 PM, David Lang wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, rjm= cmahon wrote: >>>>>> I don't know the numbers but a guess is that a majorit= y of SoCs >with >>>>>> WiFi >>>>>> radios aren't based on openwrt=2E >>>>>= > From what I've seen, the majority of APs out there are based on >OpenWRT = >>>>>> or one >>>>>> of the competing open projects, very few roll their o= wn OS from >scratch >>>>>> I think many on this list use openwrt but >>>>>>= that may not be representative of the actuals=2E Also, the trend is >less = >>>>>> sw in >>>>>> a CPU forwarding plane and more hw, one day, linux at = the CPEs >may not >>>>>> be >>>>>> needed at all (if we get to remote radi= o heads - though this is >highly >>>>>> speculative=2E) >>>>>> that is coun= tered by the trend to do more (fancier GUI, media >center, >>>>>> etc) The= >>>>>> vendors all want to differentiate themselves, that's hard to do >if= it's >>>>>> baked >>>>>> into the chips >>>>>> From my experience, sw is = defined by the number & frequency of >commits, >>>>>> and >>>>>> of timeli= ness to issues more than a version number or compile >date=2E So >>>>>> th= e >>>>>> size and quality of the software staff can be informative=2E >>>>>= > I'm more interested in mfg node process then the mfg location & >date as = >>>>>> the >>>>>> node process gives an idea if the design is keeping up o= r not=2E >Chips >>>>>> designed >>>>>> in 2012 are woefully behind and con= sume too much energy and >generate too >>>>>> much >>>>>> heat=2E I think = Intel provides this information on all its chips as >an >>>>>> example=2E = >>>>>> I'm far less concerned about the chips than the software=2E >Securit= y holes >>>>>> are far >>>>>> more likely in the software than the chips= =2E The chips may limit >the max >>>>>> performance of the devices, but the= focus of this is on the >security, >>>>>> not the >>>>>> throughput or th= e power efficiency (I don't mind that extra info, >but >>>>>> what makes >= >>>>> some device unsafe to use isn't the age of the chips, but the age >of= the >>>>>> software) >>>>>> David Lang >>>>>> Bob >>>>>> On Wed, 11 Oct 20= 23, David Bray, PhD via Nnagain wrote: >>>>>> There's also the concern abou= t how do startups roll-out such a >label for >>>>>> their tech in the early= iteration phase? How do they afford to do >the >>>>>> extra >>>>>> work fo= r the label vs=2E a big company (does this become a >regulatory >>>>>> moa= t?) >>>>>> And let's say we have these labels=2E Will only consumers with t= he >money >>>>>> to >>>>>> purchase the more expensive equipment that has = more privacy and >security >>>>>> features buy that one - leaving those who= cannot afford privacy >and >>>>>> security bad alternatives? >>>>>> As far= as security goes, I would argue that the easy answer is to >ship >>>>>> a = current version of openwrt instead of a forked, ancient >version, and >>>>>= > get their changes submitted upstream (or at least maintained >against >>>= >>> upstream)=2E It's a different paradigm than they are used to, and >righ= t >>>>>> now the suppliers tend to also work with ancient versions of >open= wrt, >>>>>> but in all the companies that I have worked at, it's proven to = be >less >>>>>> ongoing work (and far less risk) to keep up with current ve= rsions >than >>>>>> it is to stick with old versions and then do periodic '= big jump' >>>>>> upgrades=2E >>>>>> it's like car maintinance, it seems eas= ier to ignore your tires, >>>>>> brakes, and oil changes, but the minimal c= ost of maintaining >those >>>>>> systems pays off in a big way over time >>= >>>> David Lang >>>>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>>>> Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbl= oat=2Enet >>>>>> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain >>>>>> = Nnagain mailing list >>>>>> Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>>>> https:= //lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain >>>>>> _______________________= ________________________ >>>>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>>>> Nnagain@lists= =2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>>>> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnag= ain >> ------035EUFEPP874MV1VBELZ1YIS9WFGZ6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's $428 pe= r ac ceiling mount hardwired device, no verticals=2E It's $503 per vertical= for rg6 with patch n paint, internal walls only=2E

The asset value add for a rg6 jack is basically zero=2E The asset= value add for whole home, life support capable, future proof,=C2=A0 low po= wer, structured fiber & remote radio head is $2,857=2E

Staying ceiling mount helps a lot, no need for holes in the= walls and no patch and paint=2E

All homes= sold in the U=2ES=2E will have to do this per 2027 fire codes=2E The smart= ones will connect the fiber fronthaul to capture the $2,857=2E Home networ= king is second behind in unit laundry for landlords=2E Rent increase for 10= 0Gb/s point to point full duplex FiWi won't be known until after the $100M = NRE spend to create the radio sticks=2E

No = security vulnerabilities compared to those found in Linux computers=2E The = radio stick is DSPs in transistors and optics=2E No general purpose CPU to = exploit=2E

Bob=
On Oct 18, 2023, at 5:40 PM, David Lang = <david@lang=2Ehm> wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:

On being unleashed, I think this appl= ies to consumer electronics too=2E Not
sure why HDMI class cables will= be needed=2E WiFi 7 is spec'd at 16 MIMO radios
at 45Gb/s per front e= nd module=2E Add some hw compression/decompression, I
think it can car= ry even HDMI Utlra High Speed or 8K=2E And the content will
likely be = coming from the cloud too, so the need for a short HDMI cable kinda
go= es away=2E

until you have a few people in an area all t= rying to do the same thing, not they
EACH need that much low-latency ba= ndwith, and it just doesn't work well=2E

Maybe I'm unique of being tired of having rats' nest= s of cables to connect
things=2E My thoughts are no more cables other = than structured fiber and
structured AC which both are long lived, mul= tiple decades or more, and hence
are a one and done type of spend=2E

It's much more practical to go to a single USB-C cable (= power, video, etc) than
it is to go completely wireless when you are st= ationary=2E

I'm no= t a fan of PLC, mixing power and comm=2E I've installed AFCI circuit
b= reakers for all my family, including the in laws=2E These can trigger easil= y
when other signals are multiplexed=2E

There were so many thi= ngs that went wrong in The Bronx where 11 people died
including childr= en=2E An AFCI breaker would likely have prevented that fire=2E
Working= auto door closers would have helped=2E Providing heat pumps would have helped too so kids didn't have to use electric resistive space heaters wh= ich
are terrible by my judgment=2E

It's hard to believe that N= otre Dame burned down too=2E We've got so
improvement to do on life su= pport systems=2E

what's the retrofit cost vs the incrim= ental cost? (ROI timeframe), that's
usually overlooked in these 'this t= echnology is clearly better, everyone should
be forced to switch to it'= discussions=2E

(and don't get me started on Rent Control, common in= NYC, which discourages
investments by landlords)

David Lang
=
https://en=2Ewikipedia= =2Eorg/wiki/2022_Bronx_apartment_fire

Bob
Hi Bob,


On Oct 13, 2023, at 19:20, rjmcmahon <rjmcm= ahon@rjmcmahon=2Ecom> wrote:

Hi Sebastian,

It was the = ISP tech support over the phone=2E Trying to help install a home
netwo= rk over the phone w/o a technician isn't easy=2E

[SM]= Ah, okay=2E I would never even think about calling my ISP when
conside= ring changes to my home network (for one, I would rather
McGywer this, = and also my ISP does not really offer that as a
servicedsdw), I guess d= ifferent service offerings in different
countries=2E


In many U=2ES=2E states, smoke= detectors are required to be no more that 30'
apart, must be AC power= ed, battery backed up and must communicate with one
another=2E The smo= ke sensor needs to be replaced every ten years max=2E

= [SM] Intersting! Over here detectors are also mandatory (but no
distan= ce or networking requirements, it is special rooms like bed
rooms that = need to have one)=2E Also over here no AC requirement=2E


It's a good place to install r= emote radio heads, or even full blown APs,
for both internet access po= ints and for life support sensors=2E

[SM] I agree, an= d with an AC requirement powering such APs/radio
heads is not rocket sc= ience either, heck in a first iteration one
might even use PLC to bring= data to the APs=2E=2E=2E


10G NRE spends stopped over a decade ago=2E Early adopters ar= en't likely
going to wire 10G over copper in their homes=2E

[SM] Over here active 2=2E5 Gbps ethernet are just becoming che= ap
enough for enthusiasts to switch over to, and 2=2E5 has the advantag= e of
operating well even over most cat5 wiring (few homes I know will p= ush
anywhere close to the typical 100m copper ethernet limit, most will= be
fine with < 30m)=2E


100G only goes 4 meters so copper really isn't an option= for future proof
comm cable throughout buildings=2E
<= br> [SM] Indeed, but I am not 100% sure what use-case would justify going<= br> 100Gbps in a typical home? Sure if one switches to fiber wiring and
= 100Gbps is only marginally more expensive than 1 or 10 Gbps why not?
<= br>
Fiber to WiFi seems st= raight forward to me=2E

[SM] This might be related to= your professional background though? ;)
Just kidding, I think you are = simply a few years ahead of the rest of
us, as you know what is in the = pipeline=2E


= People don't want to be leashed to plugs so the last meters have to be
= wireless=2E

[SM] Yes and no=2E People did not bother= about wiring office desks or
even smart TVs, but smart phones and tabl= ets are a different kettle of
fish, as are laptops, that might be opera= ted wired on the desk but
wireless in the rest of the house=2E I also n= ote that more and more
laptops come without built in ethernet (personal= ly I detest that, an
rj45 jack is not that thick that a laptop body can= not be planned
around that, leaving some more room for e=2Eg=2E NVMe s= ockets or simplify
cooling a bit, ultra-thin is IMHO not really in the = end-users'
interest, but I digress)=2E


We need to standardized to the extent that= we can on one wireless tech
(similar to Ethernet for wired) and a pro= posal is to use 802=2E11 since
that's selling in volume, driven by mob= ile hand sets=2E

[SM] Sure 802=2E11 is likely to stay= by virtue of being relatively
ubiquitous and by being generally alread= y good enough for many use
cases (with road-maps for tackling more dema= nding use-cases, and I
very much include your fiwi proposal here)=2E



Bob<= br>
Hi Bob,
On Oct 12, 2023, at 17:55, Robert Mc= Mahon via Nnagain
<nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote:
= Hi David,
The vendors I know don't roll their own os code either=2E Th= e make their
own release still mostly based from Linux and they aren't= tied to the
openwrt release process=2E
I think GUIs on CPEs are t= he wrong direction=2E Consumer network equipment
does best when it's p= lug and play=2E Consumers don't have all the skills
needed to manage a= n in home packet network that includes wifi=2E
[SM] That = is both true, and (currently?) unachievable=2E To run a
network connect= ed to the internet securely requires to make a number
of policy decisio= ns trading-off the required/desired connectivity
versus the cost in sec= urity (either cost as effort of maintaining
security or cost in an incr= ease in attack surface)=2E
The in-side the home situation, has IMHO dr= astically improved with
the availability of off-the-shelf mesh network = gear from commercial
vendors, with easy to follow instructions and/or a= pps to find decent
AP placement=2E
For structured wiring, I would = agree that requires both an unusual
skill set (even though doing struct= ured wiring itself is not hard,
just doing it in a way that blends into= an apartment without signaling
DIY-ness is more involved)=2E
I recently fixed a home network= for my inlaws=2E It's a combo of
structured wire and WiFi APs=2E I pu= rchased the latest equipment from
Amazon vs use the ISP provided equip= ment=2E I can do this reasonably well
because I'm familiar with the ch= ips inside=2E
The online tech support started with trepidation as he wa= s concerned
that the home owner, i=2Ee me, wasn't as skilled as the IS= P technicians=2E
He suggested we schedule that but I said we were good= to go w/o one=2E
[SM] What "online tech support"? From t= he AP vendor or from the ISP?
The latter might have a script recommendi= ng ISP technicians more for
commercial considerations than technical on= es=2E=2E=2E
He asked t= o speak to my father in law when we were all done=2E He told
him, "You= 're lucky to have a son in law that know what he's doing=2E My
techs a= ren't as good, and I really liked working with him too=2E"
I say this n= ot to brag, as many on this list could do the equivalent,
but to show = that we really need to train lots of technicians on things
like RF and= structured wiring=2E Nobody should be "lucky" to get a quality
in hom= e network=2E We're not lucky to have a flush toilet anymore=2E This
s= tuff is too important to rely on luck=2E
[SM] Mmmh, that = got me thinking, maybe we should think about always
running network wir= ing parallel to electric cables so each power
socket could easily house= an ethernet plug as well=2E=2E=2E (or one per room
to keep the cost lo= wer and avoid overly much "dark" copper)? Sort of
put this into the bui= lding codes/best current practice documents=2E=2E=2E (I
understand star= ting now, will still only solve the issue over many
decades, but at lea= st we would be making some inroads; and speaking of
decades, maybe putt= ing fiber there instead of copper might be a more
future-oriented appro= ach)?
Bob
On Oct= 11, 2023, at 3:58 PM, David Lang <david@lang=2Ehm> wrote:
On Wed= , 11 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
I don't know the numbers but a guess is= that a majority of SoCs with
WiFi
radios aren't based on openwrt= =2E
From what I've seen, the majority of APs out there are based on Ope= nWRT
or one
of the competing open projects, very few roll their ow= n OS from scratch
I think many on this list use openwrt but
that ma= y not be representative of the actuals=2E Also, the trend is less
sw i= n
a CPU forwarding plane and more hw, one day, linux at the CPEs may no= t
be
needed at all (if we get to remote radio heads - though this = is highly
speculative=2E)
that is countered by the trend to do more= (fancier GUI, media center,
etc) The
vendors all want to differen= tiate themselves, that's hard to do if it's
baked
into the chips From my experience, sw is defined by the number & frequency of commi= ts,
and
of timeliness to issues more than a version number or comp= ile date=2E So
the
size and quality of the software staff can be i= nformative=2E
I'm more interested in mfg node process then the mfg loca= tion & date as
the
node process gives an idea if the design is= keeping up or not=2E Chips
designed
in 2012 are woefully behind a= nd consume too much energy and generate too
much
heat=2E I think I= ntel provides this information on all its chips as an
example=2E
I= 'm far less concerned about the chips than the software=2E Security holes <= br> are far
more likely in the software than the chips=2E The chips may= limit the max
performance of the devices, but the focus of this is on = the security,
not the
throughput or the power efficiency (I don't = mind that extra info, but
what makes
some device unsafe to use isn= 't the age of the chips, but the age of the
software)
David Lang Bob
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, David Bray, PhD via Nnagain wrote:
There= 's also the concern about how do startups roll-out such a label for
the= ir tech in the early iteration phase? How do they afford to do the
extr= a
work for the label vs=2E a big company (does this become a regulatory=
moat?)
And let's say we have these labels=2E Will only consumers = with the money
to
purchase the more expensive equipment that has m= ore privacy and security
features buy that one - leaving those who cann= ot afford privacy and
security bad alternatives?
As far as security= goes, I would argue that the easy answer is to ship
a current version = of openwrt instead of a forked, ancient version, and
get their changes = submitted upstream (or at least maintained against
upstream)=2E It's a = different paradigm than they are used to, and right
now the suppliers t= end to also work with ancient versions of openwrt,
but in all the compa= nies that I have worked at, it's proven to be less
ongoing work (and fa= r less risk) to keep up with current versions than
it is to stick with = old versions and then do periodic 'big jump'
upgrades=2E
it's like = car maintinance, it seems easier to ignore your tires,
brakes, and oil = changes, but the minimal cost of maintaining those
systems pays off in = a big way over time
David Lang
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