From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37B093B29D for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 11:33:30 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1699979608; x=1700584408; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=2arnpuuYiu3titVPMEaMVm6OOM1Azy9voUi8oNo/DVM=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:CC:Subject:In-Reply-To: References; b=nQnQ3ShLL9YsOb+USGGWwpvbINFCV/6xUQiwnZSr87AoL7tN3pYudmQjixcikoVg Pv1fL1c32MZOEAr36Zz76xRsa57x8e4oylmy1gGBizkeAfx8PaEpA+B2dRD8AVk8V nkuduYY53Yo0iuGCgE3IGC9B+H+QZY74sSHaHu9npE8o4hYQ1pPBTnSe13LO4yd4q S7crSlZC/sfkTdH/vxXjqcHUC2cqu5BrKwz29dzmFYQMUZMQdhDAm0dU86yRbXsXY gNCS/AhdelsM0HJHoY3+SeRWhm2uNEig/T+DIVm8N3cPTVqY00k5pG72T+sae/1Qm WRrEAC/ZEy/RNqDR0Q== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([208.115.85.96]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M9Wyy-1qzf5n3xLg-005V8U; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 17:33:28 +0100 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 11:33:22 -0500 From: Sebastian Moeller To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=B4s_mak?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?e_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= , Dave Taht via Nnagain User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9FEDA717-E55F-4D7B-AB22-E8DF3BA4DA88@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:/UxYU3uD6GLLTyI5F0qSiRoaycKxDy8C9Xe8nrFg3v4RHJkO1Pp yZNQNUODl9sEAo1u3RvBQi3fqyCzlS4xRqUhpdD5+xUXjz3HJToVS31daTk0OZX39xorK2F EZLMSbqeip2s6HlH4UuXNq3/h/5sxTdc8Fjjx2gwYL6Ijgq00rOnTmcxuvy0Nepb7mnmcI2 BIkKXSsqIP0AKg2fj/iFw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:sDgOmK+BW7A=;ozuk809u43x8F6qP1lnLA1r3oYn 4tjLaeyCzUW+7T7YbbXvc0sO0/FaG5nA4Gow3L4KIY6/WZCdCxOgwc2MwDP4+9nRBVBBJ0Iu2 9jE7sfFh4jD5kCIUoZuf4cFpvdJmSawWyPUHyAOYvl2Mb4NsTQayODoYr6/ZLbxCJmG1GzoaO 4hPjISiye2O1u9FoAbxP108Wn3d10dVwpR8SBrE2b/dnfBdGe3oaOt/V7oe0e34/PK9fXjc2N Ozwc8uvttP4VxK5gHGHZ2ncXxBwcHPUwftPF5FiG1EOlzq/YlBOQmDiR54Tbwqj1ciYkpkvGg ZfDSR6eN0TN64b3V3uz/uMWiaboyKg0FG2ANwYyq508qQWKz7P4RoTM0snS8hzVUadeDG4M3C iRX2avhEE+ODc1h69FpQL3ZZ+QcTz25VPqbRv1mBJW4SO/ESuxRCfHrmnb2tKr3BzrSGdNyRd UFixtBp4kxbsa9B77OVykzlij+98mDMfz2YQQKRiNJFzIDBjE1RkXca5qBmMJ5b2zjgaTpre4 cs4P0+GFLkZFH9tutRrEA85cfnO8myxrRptCH+FC7d3UPUj/hAsO34jsn2PCFxL7GwEaOQfzL BLv7iTiNcBgPWf778bd/skD653+hFkKS32T9Q+4B8re8hf84sPBSvOmHFWHrcxFf4aSg2y92M rpDYP3qkuw0pG4ATgbt/zlFo69oYI0OsPtZLdOyVa4veuLsbA6+kY9+tcRab8bo5Q4uxGWo0w SdV40b0a97F6MO4f8Cc3FGvPHSwfVF8h40jTLMYXxeBFsT+QB017oGBRgIU2ToQvbuOZY9MZs k2rStLhXl53hluWESG2/jujuO2wGrtP7WNWUXCD47GHOYedVlr6c0CUcIjHKVWkHNKnn7iFj7 xuO+G/v6bXUbPM1lJ3PJmlEx+VHJbtKnyzXx04T82KUC3RqNNgLl9TSnNmeghHT6vy+vzueMs UcP9a7DA2H0aMpzufrvXG5v0OuE= Subject: Re: [NNagain] FCC NOI due dec 1 on broadband speed standards X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 16:33:30 -0000 Hi Dave, On 14 November 2023 11:06:54 GMT-05:00, Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote: >As I noted also on the twitter thread for this, were I there, and >dishonest, (particularly were gobs of money on the table) I could easily >have permuted the bandwidth on both tests hugely upwards from a single >laptop by running continuous speedtests=2E But speedtests are not what we= do >day in or out, and reflect normal usage not at all=2E > >The 83% of people (experts!!!) that were wrong is =2E=2E=2E mindboggling= =2E [SM] The optimist in me reads this as only 27% were really off=2E=2E=2E I = also note the options had an odd scaling, neither liner, nor logarithmic, m= aking it hard to make inferences=2E > >PS What wifi standard was at ietf? Is this still the old ciscos? The >headline bandwidths claimed for any version of wifi drop dramatically at >distance and with multiple users present=2E So it might have taken a cou= ple >laptops out of the thousand there to move the stats in a perverse >direction, now that I think about it=2E > >Thank you for doing this experiment! While there are certainly also cases >were mass groupings of people totally saturate the underlying mac (more >than the perceived bandwidth - I have seen congestion collapse and a sea = of >retransmits even in small wifi gatherings), the only number that seems a >bit off in your test from a typical residential/small office is the >roughly 3=2E5x1 ratio between down and up=2E I am willing (for now) to pu= t that >down to engineers doing actual work, rather than netflix=2E [SM] +1; the typical high down/up ratio for home users is partly a result = of offering mostly heavily asymmetric links, users inherently learn what th= ey can use a link for=2E=2E=2E Regards Sebastian > >I would so love to see more measurements like this at other wifi >concentration points, in offices and coffee shops=2E Packet captures too!= !!! > >On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 10:46=E2=80=AFAM Livingood, Jason via Nnagain < >nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote: > >> On the subject of how much bandwidth does one household need, here's a = fun >> stat for you=2E >> >> >> >> At the IETF=E2=80=99s 118th meeting last >> week (Nov 4 =E2=80=93 10, 2023), there were over 1,000 engineers in att= endance=2E At >> peak there were 870 devices connected to the WiFi network=2E Peak bandw= idth >> usage: >> >> - Downstream peak ~750 Mbps >> - Upstream ~250 Mbps >> >> >> >> From my pre-meeting Twitter poll ( >> https://twitter=2Ecom/jlivingood/status/1720060429311901873): >> >> [image: A screenshot of a chat Description automatically generated] >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain >> > > --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E